D&D 5E A mechanical solution to the problem with rests

[KarinsDad]

You only get so many recoveries per level. So, if you go 5MWD'ing your way through a dungeon, you run out of recoveries before you earn enough exp to get to level 2. They're a finite resource within a given level.

Yeah, but if you are 5MWD'ing your way through a dungeon, you are only wasting resources if you actually waste resource. If you cast your Fireball on a single Goblin, yeah, you will have issues. But if you use your resources responsibly, all that 5MWD'ing your way through a dungeon means is that you are going through 15 rooms in a single delve instead of holing up after 5 rooms while out of resources.

I do understand that if recoveries can be used in a very short period of time, 5MWD doesn't occur. The PCs just keep going and going and if they responsibly use up all of their resources and recoveries repeatedly, they are also gaining enough XP to level up and regain those recoveries. An entire large dungeon can be done in a few "in-game" hours (i.e. maybe all in a single day) because the PCs just kept going and they might be one or two or even more levels higher when they walk out.

But if recoveries take a long time, then I don't see how they address the 5MWD issue.

 

[mflayermonk]

I'd like to add a minor wrinkle in here: how about being able to cash in unused rests for things?
For example:
More XP
Magic Items
Information on the location of things in the game
Rules bending-better Ranger pets, better Paladin mounts, spells from another classes spell list
Patrons or influence with NPCs

 

[Tony Vargas]

And yes, it appears that the designers explicitly laid out a specific set of guidelines for both max experience in a day and experience required to level up. I use the word "max" because the DMG uses the phrase "can handle" multiples times in The Adventuring Day section. In other words, there's a perceived potential limit by the designers and nothing seems to indicate that the game was designed to always reach that limit every adventuring day.

Nothing except that's the point that short- and long- rest-recharge abilities are meant to balance with eachother, and that it's the point at which the encounter difficulties may actually be close to what they say they are (deadly might actually kill some one, moderate won't be a cakewalk), due to the stressing of daily resources.

I think that one potential flaw in this design is that there are a lot of resources used in game outside of adventuring. PCs cast spells in town to acquire information or accomplish other goals all of the time without actually adventuring and definitively gaining experience per se. Those resources get recovered automatically via normal resting, even though the actions done might not acquire a lot of experience or any experience at all. So unless the PCs can both recover and rest, it would seem like this system would be punitive to players who like to use their limited resource abilities in town without necessarily "adventuring".

Actually, it does make sense to award experience for challenges outside of combat, especially if they use up meaningful resources - and it would be an ancillary perk of this system that using a spell slot or something that way actually is an expenditure of a resource, rather than a freebie.

Though, really, a lot of those are going to be rituals, anyway.

Yeah, but if you are 5MWD'ing your way through a dungeon, you are only wasting resources if you actually waste resource. If you cast your Fireball on a single Goblin, yeah, you will have issues.

Well, the goblin will have issues. But, if you have plenty of fireballs (because you take on 1 goblin per day), your only issue is, IDK, smoke inhalation.... well, and the rest of your party may have an issues with boredom.

I do understand that if recoveries can be used in a very short period of time, 5MWD doesn't occur.

It /can/ occur, it just has a price, because you only get so many recoveries...

But if recoveries take a long time, then I don't see how they address the 5MWD issue.

I think you're taking the '5' a little too literally, there.

 

[TwoSix]

If the rules make no allowances for the party to rest earlier than expected, then they risk being forced into a situation where they have to continue to adventure at significantly reduced power and risk a TPK, ending the campaign.

While I agree with your point, if the possibility of poor resource expenditure (or just poor luck) causing scenario or campaign failure shouldn't be an option, why are the rules based on a resource attrition model? Other, of course, than tradition and a broadly understood sense of verisimilitude.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I'm really struck by how much chaos this causes. I mean, we have a broad mix of D&D experience at our table. I started with Blue Box Basic, a couple others with 2nd edition, someone else with 4th edition Dark Sun, and several people brand new to the game. Lots of possibilities for confusion, resistance, or whatever.

Here's how it went:

"Ok, the new edition balances the classes with long and short rests. Warlocks really need them, other classes like Wizards and Druids benefit. Also, 6-8 encounters between long rests is the balance assumption between martials and casters."

Table all around takes it in, and is fine.

During play:

Someone: "Ok, we've been going for a while. Seems like a natural break. Anyone need a short rest?"
Warlock: "I'm out of spells."
Druid: "I could use a refresh on Wild Shape and a spell recovery."
Someone else: "Cool, Anyone want to push on?"
People shaking their heads.

DM: "Ok, you take a half hour breather, eat, drink some water, and do your short rest things. Anyone want to do anything else special?" People shaking their heads.

"OK, done. Moving on..."

Whole thing takes one minute.

WHY IS THIS SO FREAKING CONTROVERSIAL.

Early on in my group when we were all new, including the DM, the conversation pretty much would have gone this way except I would say "Let's make it a long rest, so I can get my uses of Rage back." Since no one could think of a good reason not to take the Long Rest we would do it. Then by barb was outshining the Fighter. We still had fun, but I can't help but think it would have been better if I hadn't been so selfish.

 

[Jester David]

While I agree with your point, if the possibility of poor resource expenditure (or just poor luck) causing scenario or campaign failure shouldn't be an option, why are the rules based on a resource attrition model? Other, of course, than tradition and a broadly understood sense of verisimilitude.

There's a fine line between "tradition" and "nature of the game".
D&D is a resource management game. You can remove it like you can remove money from Monopoly.

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, it does make sense to award experience for challenges outside of combat, especially if they use up meaningful resources - and it would be an ancillary perk of this system that using a spell slot or something that way actually is an expenditure of a resource, rather than a freebie.

Who said anything about a challenge outside of combat? I'm talking about stuff like an Aid spell at the beginning of the day, just because that is SOP every single day, even in town. Or Mage Armor every day.

Or multiple Animate Deads by the Necromancer day after day after day with no adventure or challenge in sight. The Necromancer spends a week in town copying spells from a different wizard's spell book that he acquired, but he still keeps his little undead army churning.

Or maybe a Ranger is using Animal Friendship and Animal Handling every single day in order to domesticate some cool beast.

Our current group is building an inn on the outskirts of Neverwinter. Sometimes, they use spells to speed up the process during downtime. Our DM isn't giving the PCs experience for building an inn. We are gaining the benefits of that inn. Note: soon to be inn/trading post/adventurer's guild/stables/blacksmith/pawn shop/landing site for our storm king's thunder airship, and possibly even temple, and a place for Harshnag to hang out (eventually building a bedroom in a large old barn for him).


So, freebies might be required.

 

[TwoSix]

There's a fine line between "tradition" and "nature of the game".
D&D is a resource management game. You can remove it like you can remove money from Monopoly.

Sure, I agree with that. But I don't know what other inference I can draw from your statement that "If the rules make no allowances for the party to rest earlier than expected, then they risk being forced into a situation where they have to continue to adventure at significantly reduced power and risk a TPK, ending the campaign", then that resource management and success/failure are decoupled.

I mean, if you manage your resources poorly, then shouldn't the obvious consequence be that you have to continue with fewer resources and therefore risk a TPK/campaign failure?

I guess you could decouple TPK and adventure failure by allowing the party to withdraw from the adventure and gain a long rest for it, at some narrative (and/or mechanical) cost...is that what you were getting at?

 

[schnee]

Early on in my group when we were all new, including the DM, the conversation pretty much would have gone this way except I would say "Let's make it a long rest, so I can get my uses of Rage back." Since no one could think of a good reason not to take the Long Rest we would do it. Then by barb was outshining the Fighter. We still had fun, but I can't help but think it would have been better if I hadn't been so selfish.

Hah! Good on you for owning it. I know I did the same back in the day, and far worse.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Who said anything about a challenge outside of combat? I'm talking about stuff like an Aid spell at the beginning of the day, just because that is SOP every single day, even in town. Or Mage Armor every day.

Or multiple Animate Deads by the Necromancer day after day after day with no adventure or challenge in sight. .

As a bonus, the OP's idea would curb systematic abuses like that, as well, yes.

That hadn't occurred to me - I was too focused on the elephant in the room, I guess.