A mystery race ?

[Irda Ranger]

Is that something I missed on a blog somewhere? Where do you get that idea?

Although I don't have the quote in front of me (so I'm paraphrasing here), I think it was the Eladrin article which described Eladrins "as similar to elves as elves are to drow", and all three of them being fey. So, if Elves and Eladrins are separate races, so are Drow.

As we know they're fey, but that Drow "don't get along with the other fey". I forget which article that's from, but I distinctly recall reading that. It makes senses that most Fey are strongly tied to the Feywild, and Corellon (the King of the Fey), who is served (I'm guessing here) by the Ghaele and other "high Eladrin" or "true Eladrin." The Drow have rejected Corellon for Lloth, a demon.

The above is an assemblage of quotes and educated guesses.

 

[The Little Raven]

I realize plenty of other games have had orcs and other monsters as PCs. But I think WoW is the major force in making them popular.

I just have to point this out.

World of Warcraft - Released 2004.

Complete Book of Humanoids - Released 1993.

So... I don't think that WoW is the reason for people wanting to play races they've wanted to play since before the Warcraft series was even published (Warcraft 1 was released in 1994).

 

[Irda Ranger]

I just don't think that Orcs belong in the PHB as a core race. I like my Orcs like Tolkein's orcs...evil, nasty, and totally unredeemable. But I must admit that that is just one interpretation of orcs these days.

I feel the same way, but you know what? I don't think the 4E designers do.

If you consider the Warlock and Tiefling, and the flavor text for both, and Rich Baker's (It was Rich, right? Or someone else ...) comments/questions about "How evil can we make the Warlock?", it's not hard to come to the conclusion that the 4E designers are trying to make a game that allows you to "bat for the other side."

Which I think is a real shame. I don't want to get all religious/political/alignment debatey, but to skirt the issue, I'll just present my conclusion: I think encouraging people to role-play evil characters is a bad idea. They'll either get it wrong, which will corrupt their ability to recognize true evil, or they'll get it right, which may be worse.

As for orcs, I do want to stick to the Tolkien version. D&D has moved away from being a Tolkien sim by introducing new races and concepts, but that hasn't necessarily changed the core. Aragorn is still recognizabley a Ranger, Gimli is a Dwarf as the PHB presents them, etc. etc. I'd like the option to carve down and away the new stuff and play a Fellowship of the Ring if I wanted to. But if Orcs as a "misunderstood" PC race are Core, it just gets a little harder.

Since we know Shifters and Gnomes are out, and I think a DL Minotaur unlikely, my vote is for Changeling.

 

[Aldarc]

Not that I'm trying to win an argument... (there is no argument here, just us expressing opinions for and against monstrous PC races) but I realize that we've reached the point we have to agree to disagree.

I realize plenty of other games have had orcs and other monsters as PCs. But I think WoW is the major force in making them popular.

I've also never liked monstrous races as PCs, and I fully realize that's my opinion and I'm not trying to change anyone's. But I just don't think that Orcs belong in the PHB as a core race. I like my Orcs like Tolkein's orcs...evil, nasty, and totally unredeemable. But I must admit that that is just one interpretation of orcs these days.

I know, but I am not sure what else will be in that final spot, and if it is drow (1/2 PHB races as elvish), I think that such an outcome would be far more depressing than orcs.

 

[Reaper Steve]

So... I don't think that WoW is the reason for people wanting to play races they've wanted to play since before the Warcraft series was even published (Warcraft 1 was released in 1994).

People wanting to play monstrous races does not justify making one of those races core.
Again, the MM is supposed to give options for playing monsters. But having a monster race or two as core will really shake up the whole setting.

It'll be hard enough to explain why a barkeep allows the dude with horns and a tail to hang in his tavern, much less a whole party made of Orcs.

I have never seen a good reason for playing a monster, nor have I seen one played well. My experience (and I'm speaking just for me) has been that people play monsters just to have cool new tricks. Again, that's my limited experience...I don't want to start a flame war on the subject. I have just found games more rewarding when the PCs are humans/elves/dwarves and the monsters are the monsters. I would even be happy with a human-only campaign...yep, I like Iron Heroes.

 

[Reaper Steve]

Just to reiterate, the above post is my opinion only. Not trying to pick a fight!

(had to put something here since I deleted the original text.)

 

[Aldarc]

Since we know Shifters and Gnomes are out, and I think a DL Minotaur unlikely, my vote is for Changeling.

And while changelings might be great, I would be too worried that releasing changelings as part of the PHB1 core races would take some of the wind out of the sails of Eberron's conversion to 4E. And I do realize that other Eberron races are in the MM, but I think it would be best for them to all be released in the same book as player races.

Sorry, the 'base covered' comment wasn't intended to be snide.

My mistake, so I have retracted it from the original post.

 

[The Little Raven]

People wanting to play monstrous races does not justify making one of those races core.

Sure it does. That's called being responsive to your customer base. For all we know, they could have some market research that shows a significant segment of their customers want some "evil" races in the core book.

Again, the MM is supposed o give options for playing monsters. But having a monster race or two as core will really shake up the whole setting.

I don't see how having orcs in the Player's Handbook will shake up the whole setting. In fact, since it's a points of light premise, orcs would be incredibly common. Probably common enough that some could be non-evil PCs.

It'll be hard enough to explain why a barkeep allows the dude with horns and a tail to hang in his tavern, much less a whole party made of Orcs.

So, is that barkeep going to risk his immortal soul or his entrails on trying to throw them out, instead of taking their gold, serving their drinks, and keeping his non-combatant mouth shut?

I don't know about you, but if some demon-horned, goat-hooved warlock came into my establishment, I'd think twice about angering him. Not sure I could make him leave, even if I tried.

I have never seen a good reason for playing a monster, nor have I seen one played well.

I come from a different school of thought, having spent my teenage years playing games like Vampire. I like portraying monsters, especially ones that are so close to human that dealing with the differences makes the process more interesting. Especially when dealing with personal horror. Now, I'll admit that a lot of people play something "evil" or "monstrous" because it's kewl, but some of us like the challenge presented by being an outsider looking in.

I have just found games more rewarding when the PCs humans/elves/dwarves and the monsters are the monsters. I would even be happy with a human-only campaign...yep, I like Iron Heroes.

All games have their place.

 

[Reaper Steve]

Mourn, good points all.
It really does come down to preference.

I have noticed that lately D&D seems to be pushing Hobgoblins as the evil humanoid of choice. So maybe that opens the door for orcs to be PCs.

But my unjustifiable and not well-defended opinion is that the game would be better without orcs or drow as core PC races. We'll see in Dec!

 

[The Little Raven]

But my unjustifiable and not well-defended opinion is that the game would be better without orcs or drow as core PC races. We'll see in Dec!

Personally, I'd rather not see drow in the PHB. Three elfesque races is too much.

Orcs, I don't mind at all. I've kinda wanted them to have a good spread of races over the good to neutral to evil spectrum for a while, and they seem to be heading that way.