A new spell system: a "token" based wizard

[SteveC]

v1.15 uploaded

A very quick update to clear up confusion. Version 1.15 has changed the section on casting a spell to clarify how tokens are spent in terms of spell level and caster level. Please let me know if that explains things better!

--Steve

 

[Sadrik]

I got an idea for your recharge in combat thing. Make it a spell. A 0 level spell that can be incresed as per your table: 2. It recovers 2 tokens for every two caster levels you increse it by. Basically, doubling up the tokens you spend on the spell. It would obviously have a concentration check in combat as normal spellcasting. So you wouldnt have to change any rules or make up any rules for that.

Negative tokens:
I think damage is not right for this. Someone casts feeblemind on a wizard and they die just doesnt make sense to me. They should be stunned if they go to negatives. Or alternately make a chart that has progressivly worse conditions.

I can see it token costs being: 0-9 instead of 1-10. 0 level spells are not that powerful and if they are cast an unlimited number of them per day it doesnt do much. But consider this: when you get around to developing the cleric. They have a little spell called cure minor wounds that given enough time will allow the cleric to cure everybody to max for a 0 token cost.

Oh and here is spell tokens for bards rangers and paladins

Level	P&R	B
1	-	0
2	-	1
3	-	2
4	0	3
5	0	3
6	1	4
7	1	5
8	2	6
9	2	6
10	3	7
11	3	8
12	4	9
13	4	9
14	5	10
15	5	11
16	6	12
17	6	12
18	7	13
19	7	14
20	8	15

 

[SteveC]

Rise! Rise from your grave! RISE!

Just an update on my token rules. This update addresses many concerns for the class. I have included optional mechanics for fatigue and exhaustion with the wizard to balance the number of recharges they may take in a day. I've also reworked the rate at which spells are recovered in combat to address the idea that the original rules were pulled from my...hat.

I've also placed an optional rule for the number of spell slots the wizard receives.

Let me know what you think!

Oh, sorcerers are next...I promise.

--Steve

 

[JimAde]

Steve, this rocks. Nice work. Just a tiny quibble in your example: Your sample wizard casts "Acid Orb" for 0 cost. I think you mean "Acid Splash." People might think you mean "Orb of Acid" from Complete Arcane which is actually a 4th-level spell.

This is an excellent system, and I think will mee the needs der_kluge lists in the other thread.

 

[SteveC]

Steve, this rocks. Nice work. Just a tiny quibble in your example: Your sample wizard casts "Acid Orb" for 0 cost. I think you mean "Acid Splash." People might think you mean "Orb of Acid" from Complete Arcane which is actually a 4th-level spell.

This is an excellent system, and I think will mee the needs der_kluge lists in the other thread.

Jim,
You're entirely right. I noticed that when I was last reviewing the document as a part of adding rules for the Sorcerer. I did indeed mean Acid Splash, and I'll update it when I go to version 1.3, which will include the new rules for adding the sorcerer to the mix. Next up after that is the cleric, but that is a lot more work: you really need to find a way to cap the total healing possible or a party will never suffer any long term consequences from battles (other than possible death, I suppose!)

 

[JimAde]

That is a tough one. Maybe clerics should always operate under the limited refresh rules. When you do sorcerers, will you make it generic for "spontaneous arcane casters"? If so, you'll already have the infinite heal problem with bards.

Maybe you could make it dependent on the healing recipient instead of the caster. Say a creature can only receive magical healing equal to his normal hit points per day. Any more has no effect.

 

[SteveC]

That is a tough one. Maybe clerics should always operate under the limited refresh rules. When you do sorcerers, will you make it generic for "spontaneous arcane casters"? If so, you'll already have the infinite heal problem with bards.

Maybe you could make it dependent on the healing recipient instead of the caster. Say a creature can only receive magical healing equal to his normal hit points per day. Any more has no effect.

Frankly, this has been the biggest pickle for the whole system. The problem is that characters can often take far more damage than their basic hit points in only one combat, especially at high levels. I'm going to try and present options for the GM to use to best fit their campaign. Here's what I've got so far:

1. You can't heal over X hit points in a day, where X is:
....the target's hit points
....some multiple of the caster's CL (CL x 10 as an example)
....the target's hit points multiplied by a "power level number" such as:
x1 for levels 1-5
x2 for levels 6-10
x3 for levels 11-15
x4 for levels 16+

2. You can heal as much as you like, but if targets are severely wounded, a portion of their hit points can only be recovered by rest. This portion might be a fraction of the target's total hit points such as 1/2, 1/3 or 1/4

3. You can only have X total healing spells cast on you in a single day, or in a related fashion, you can have only X total levels of healing spells cast on you.

4. You can heal as much as you like, but taking a large amount of damage has significant long-term effects that can only be healed by rest.

That last option is based on a set of rules I am working on for tracking damage a little differently, called death and dying.

All of those rules would be in addition to the restrictions for recharging that would apply to wizards.

So, as you can see...the whole thing is very complicated and I'm open to any suggestions.

--Steve

 

[Cheiromancer]

It's nice to say that you want to give options to GMs, but a GM relies on a game designer to reduce the number of options to a manageable number. This is especially true when tweaking an option has unpredictable ripple effects throughout the game. Game designers have to keep those ripples under control.

I've just ordered Elements of Magic: Mystic Earth which I understand has its own take on magic. I gather that low level cure spells can be used indefinitely, but high level spells are liable to cause cumulative penalties to the caster that can be removed only by rest.

My suggestion is that you allow infinite curing of small amounts of damage at mid to high levels. Sure it will allow parties to recover completely from combats, given time to rest, but that is what currently happens when plentiful wands of cure light wounds are available. People who want to play a grim n gritty campaign where curing is scarce shouldn't be using token casters.

At mid to high levels the most important kind of curing is the kind that occurs in combat. Mass Heals and the like. That is something that the limited size of the token pool can handle well.

Here's a suggestion that limits cures (including spells that raise the dead, remove blindness or disease, curses, and so on): have the default option be that they expend tokens. If you use all your tokens on cures, they can be recovered only by 8 hours rest. But have a mechanism whereby some low level cures can become "signature spells" - these tokens will recover in a few minutes like most tokens do. That allows a caster to cast cure light wounds at will at higher levels, and maybe cure disease as well. But they won't be casting heal dozens of times a day until they hit epic levels.

 

[SteveC]

It's nice to say that you want to give options to GMs, but a GM relies on a game designer to reduce the number of options to a manageable number. This is especially true when tweaking an option has unpredictable ripple effects throughout the game. Game designers have to keep those ripples under control.

I'll agree with you on this to large degree. What you saw there was some of the things I have been considering for how to implement the system. When I finally end up writing it all up, I'll end up with a core set of rules, and then give you a set of options with increasingly tighter control. What I think this does is let the GM make his choices based on his vision for the campaign, but also take the players into account. For the group I have been using this system with, no controls were really necessary, as they didn't really want to break the system. This makes them a good bunch to play with (the best, actually) but not a good group to stress test anything. One of the groups I play in, on the other hand, has some players in it who are always looking for the best way to...ahem...massage the rules system. They would be the group to use and see what is the worst that could happen. Talking to some of the players about what they would end up doing with token system was what led to some of the current restraints, as a matter of fact.

The big point of all of this is also that I'm not presenting the system in the way that I would if it were a commercial product. I would stucture things significantly differently if that were the case, moving all of the options to the end and giving the GM a checklist to use to create the campaign model they wanted. While the token system might get there eventually, it's a long way to there from where we are now.

I've just ordered Elements of Magic: Mystic Earth which I understand has its own take on magic. I gather that low level cure spells can be used indefinitely, but high level spells are liable to cause cumulative penalties to the caster that can be removed only by rest.

That is one way to go. I don't have Mystic Earth yet, but earlier Elements of Magic products were excellent. My problem with letting you use an unlimited number of low level cure spells is that it effectively means you can still heal up entirely between battles, it just takes a little longer. That might be what some GMs are looking for, but without some kind of long-term damage effects it really turns a battle into an all or nothing affair. Is that a bad thing, I wonder?

My suggestion is that you allow infinite curing of small amounts of damage at mid to high levels. Sure it will allow parties to recover completely from combats, given time to rest, but that is what currently happens when plentiful wands of cure light wounds are available. People who want to play a grim n gritty campaign where curing is scarce shouldn't be using token casters.

At mid to high levels the most important kind of curing is the kind that occurs in combat. Mass Heals and the like. That is something that the limited size of the token pool can handle well.

I think that is going to be the default option I go with for the rules, because you're right: any medium to high level party has enough resources to fully regain HP between battles. I will still have a series of options for the GM who does not like this.

Here's a suggestion that limits cures (including spells that raise the dead, remove blindness or disease, curses, and so on): have the default option be that they expend tokens. If you use all your tokens on cures, they can be recovered only by 8 hours rest. But have a mechanism whereby some low level cures can become "signature spells" - these tokens will recover in a few minutes like most tokens do. That allows a caster to cast cure light wounds at will at higher levels, and maybe cure disease as well. But they won't be casting heal dozens of times a day until they hit epic levels.

Not a bad idea. It will go into the idea mill along with the rest of the excellent suggestions I've received...I hope I will be able to update the document shortly.

Thanks for all the comments!

--Steve