A Paladin Problematic

[Felon]

I'm not currently DM'ing, but I'm seeing a lot of insanity from the paladin in our current group that is taking its toll on our DM. Just wanted to run some of the crazier tricks past you guys to see if it's all kosher. Well, not kosher--because it's insane--but legit at any rate.

First trick is Gift of Resistance. It's a stance that lets him give up his resistances to grant the party resist 20 of the same for the entire frickin' encounter. So, he gets himself 1 point of omni-resistance, and then gives everyone else resist 20. Only once per-day, but it's an encounter-buster.

Another much more vexing deal for the DM is the hospialer PP feature where he heals anyone that a challenged monster attacks. The attack doesn't even have to hit. No requirements on distance or uses per turn or surges getting burned or...well, anything. At 21 points a pop, he's healing more than many critters can deal (and remember, misses still heal 21 HP). This is a PHB ability, so it's built under the assumption that paladins are single-target challengers, which they don't seem to be anymore.

Of coruse, it's easy enough to jerk a knee and say "well, just have the monsters attack the paladin". But my pally pal has something like seven or eight lay-on-hands per day that heal him for 60 points or so, and that's just the tip of the healberg. He's even got some item that lets him heal above his maximum HP (by converting the healing into THP). And of course, he's got some kiting tricks to ensure he can maintain a challenge while maintaining his distance. He's never sweating, trust me. And as long as he's around, neither are we.

Understand, I play a sorcerer in this campaign, so I'm the biggest beneficiary of all this. Yet, I see the challenge dwindling away and the DM's frustration at said diminishment growing. More than once I've been sorely tempted to just reach out and pat him on the head when he crits and then sees it immediately undone by the hospitaler's blessing.

 

[sigfile]

Gift of Resistance only works for characters within five squares of the Paladin (effectively aura: 5). If he's managing that while simultaneously kiting an encounter worth of critters and not getting mercilessly beaten down, I'd be impressed.

Hospitaler's Challenge: Keep in mind that Divine Sanction is not Divine Challenge, so creatures subject to his Divine Sanction wouldn't trigger this ability.

 

[talarei07]

not familiar with gift of resistance. but 21 hp from Hospitaler's Blessing? ok what level are the characters? 1/2 lvl+wis mod We will go with minimum on level of 11/2=5 + wis (23 at max) mod + 6=11 hp so to gain 10 more points from this he would have to be at minimum what 22st level (11) with a 30 wis (10). unless there are more factors not listed. sound about right. im by no means an expert in dnd, and please correct me if im wrong.

 

[Felon]

Gift of Resistance only works for characters within five squares of the Paladin (effectively aura: 5). If he's managing that while simultaneously kiting an encounter worth of critters and not getting mercilessly beaten down, I'd be impressed.

You know, I woulda thought so too, but as it turns out, being able to heal yourself for a gross amount of damage while converting any surplus into THP is a pretty sick thing. There's no cap on that conversion, so one surge can net him 50 or 60 THP easily.

not familiar with gift of resistance. but 21 hp from Hospitaler's Blessing? ok what level are the characters? 1/2 lvl+wis mod We will go with minimum on level of 11/2=5 + wis (23 at max) mod + 6=11 hp so to gain 10 more points from this he would have to be at minimum what 22st level (11) with a 30 wis (10). unless there are more factors not listed. sound about right. im by no means an expert in dnd, and please correct me if im wrong.

Well, the character's 23rd-leve, and he's got one of those items that add onto surgeless healing. Healer's Broach, IIRC.

 

[Aegeri]

My steps to success here:

1) Tell your DM to buy Monster Vault.

2) Go to the Dracolich.

3) Introduce Mr. Paladin to Dracolich.

4) What him cry tears of horror as the Dragon prevents him - and everyone else - in an aura 3 from regaining any HP or even temp HP.

5) Have Dragon beat Paladin senseless because he does an incredible amount of damage and cannot heal (this means the Paladin will have to disengage at some point or risk dying from the dragons ridiculous action economy). Throw in undead allies up to EL + 3 (EL 26 total) for further hilarity and to increase the delicious beatdown factor.

6) Profit??!

Other than that, I do wonder how monsters are doing insufficient damage to make 21 HP regained not that great. Most epic monsters these days can hit pretty hard. With the gift of resistance and the temporary HP I can understand, but maintaining divine challenge on multiple monsters is extremely hard and that ability does *not* work with divine sanction.

 

[Ainamacar]

Assuming the rules are being applied correctly (i.e. Divine Sanction not tripping Hospitaler's Blessing as mentioned above) and reasonable steps are taken when designing encounters but the problem still persists, there is always the option of the DM requesting the player nerf one or more of his abilities/items for the sake of the game. The DM's fun counts too. Obviously some people will take this better than others, but if everyone at the table respects each other then this shouldn't ruffle any feathers. It's better than setting up a passive-aggressive situation at the gaming table, that's for sure.

In one campaign my friend DMed I came in at high level with a replacement character that was optimized enough to outshine the rest of the party, and destroy otherwise reasonable challenges for that party. Rather than start an arms race he asked me to nerf my character, which I did, and all was well.

 

[Ryujin]

You know, I woulda thought so too, but as it turns out, being able to heal yourself for a gross amount of damage while converting any surplus into THP is a pretty sick thing. There's no cap on that conversion, so one surge can net him 50 or 60 THP easily.

Well, the character's 23rd-leve, and he's got one of those items that add onto surgeless healing. Healer's Broach, IIRC.

Is that 50-60 THP from a one-shot, or the sum of multiple effects? Temp hits don't stack so the largest amount that he gets from a source is all that he'll get.

 

[Dragonblade]

At epic level, monsters should be doing some serious damage. Is the DM using the new damage guidelines?

If the DM is using pre MM3 monsters, than my rule of thumb is to add +5 damage per tier per monster attack. So epic monsters are doing +15 damage on every attack. I found this brings monster damage back in line with the power level, combos and synergy that epic characters have.

 

[BobTheNob]

Well, the character's 23rd-leve, and he's got one of those items that add onto surgeless healing. Healer's Broach, IIRC.

Which is why our group has a house rule saying no bonus's on healing unless its surged (which we have had in place since before the errata). That way surgless heals are controlled and you dont end up with situations like this because the player has an item which WOTC hasnt yet brought under the 'surge only' logic.

Assuming the rules are being applied correctly (i.e. Divine Sanction not tripping Hospitaler's Blessing as mentioned above) and reasonable steps are taken when designing encounters but the problem still persists, there is always the option of the DM requesting the player nerf one or more of his abilities/items for the sake of the game. The DM's fun counts too. Obviously some people will take this better than others, but if everyone at the table respects each other then this shouldn't ruffle any feathers. It's better than setting up a passive-aggressive situation at the gaming table, that's for sure.

Done this a couple of times, once was a significant nerf. Mind you, before I did it, I documented the logic behind the nerf (about 5 typed pages, incorporating arguments, comparissons and implications) and produced damage graphs to prove the breakage. Then I consulted fully with the player as to the reason and nature of the change and gave him the option of free retrains if he was unhappy.

Follow a pattern of diligence, and nerfs aren't that hard

 

[Dragonblade]

Also, remember that divine sanction is not divine challenge as was pointed out before, and in most cases a challenged monster should be focusing on the paladin. As long as the paladin is included in the attack, the allies don't get to heal.

Also, I would rule its one ally per attack that the paladin is not included that can benefit from the hospitaler ability. Not all allies.

The resistance power is nasty, but its epic so it should be nasty. Just bear in mind the 5 square range. If I was DM, I would do my best to slide or move PCs out of range before hammering them.