A Paladin's Fall From Righteousness?

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Here detailed is a plot element that is going on off and on in one of the campaigns I am in. Your thoughts concerning the situation, and appropriate responses may undoubtedly prove useful as well as entertaining!

Thankyou!

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Bronwyn, Female Human Pal20: Medium Humanoid; HD 20d10+40 (Paladin); hp 220; Init + 2; Spd 20; AC 29; Atk + 30 base melee, + 22 base ranged; +34 ( 1d8+14+1d6, +4 Longsword ); +34 ( 1d8+14, +4 Flail, light ); +33 ( 1d4+13, +3 Dagger ); +34 ( 1d8+14, +4 Lance, heavy ); AL LG; SV Fort + 24, Ref + 18, Will + 23; STR 31, DEX 15, CON 15, INT 15, WIS 25, CHA 30.
Skills: Climb + 14, Concentration + 4, Craft (Blacksmithing) + 5, Craft (Carpentry) + 5, Diplomacy + 12, Handle Animal + 12, Heal + 10, Hide + 9, Innuendo + 8, Intimidate + 14, Intuit Direction + 8, Jump + 7, Knowledge (Geography) + 3, Knowledge (Hearth Wisdom) + 3, Knowledge (History) + 3, Knowledge (Law) + 3, Knowledge (Local) + 3, Knowledge (Nobility) + 3, Knowledge (Politics) + 3, Knowledge (religion) + 20, Knowledge (Streetwise) + 3, Knowledge (War) + 3, Listen + 10, Move Silently + 9, Perform + 14, Ride + 20, Search + 4, Sense Motive + 12, Speak Language + 6, Spot + 10, Swim + 12, Use Rope + 5, Wilderness Lore + 10. Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Leadership, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge. Spells Known (Pal --/5/5/5/4): 1st -- Bless, Bless Water, Bless Weapon, Create Water, Cure Light Wounds, Detect Poison, Detect Undead, Divine Favor, Endure Elements, Magic Weapon, Protection from Evil, Read Magic, Resistance, Virtue; 2nd -- Delay Poison, Remove Paralysis, Resist Elements, Shield Other, Undetectable Alignment; 3rd -- Cure Moderate Wounds, Discern Lies, Dispel Magic, Greater Magic Weapon, Heal Mount, Magic Circle against Evil, Prayer, Remove Blindness/Deafness; 4th -- Cure Serious Wounds, Death Ward, Dispel Evil, Freedom of Movement, Holy Sword, Neutralize Poison.
Spells Prepared (Pal --/5/5/5/4): 1st - Create Water, Cure Light Wounds, Detect Poison, Divine Favor, Read Magic; 2nd - Delay Poison, Remove Paralysis, Resist Elements x2, Undetectable Alignment; 3rd - Discern Lies, Dispel Magic, Greater Magic Weapon, Heal Mount, Prayer; 4th - Cure Serious Wounds, Death Ward, Dispel Evil, Freedom of Movement.

Possessions:
Weapons: +3 Dagger; +4 Flail, light; +4 Longsword: Holy, Icy Burst, Lawful; +4 Lance, heavy.
Armor: +4 Full plate.
Shields: +4 Shield, large, steel.
Goods: Explorer's outfit; Courtier's outfit; Blacksmith's tools, Masterwork; Carpenter's tools, Masterwork; Climber's kit, Masterwork; Holy symbol, silver.
Magic: Wondrous: Belt of giant strength (+6); Wondrous: Boots of elvenkind; Wondrous: Cloak of elvenkind; Wondrous: Daern's instant fortress; Wondrous: Everburning torch; Wondrous: Gloves of swimming and climbing; Wondrous: Heward's handy haversack; Ring: Elemental Resistance, Major; Ring: Sustenance; Potion: Heroism (x4); Rod: Splendor; Potion: Cure Serious Wounds (x6).
Animal, Horse, Heavy War: CR 2; Large Animal; HD 12d8+36 (Animal); hp 132; Init + 1; Spd 50; AC 20; Atk + 8 base melee, + 3 base ranged; +8/+3 ( 1d6+6, 2 Hooves; 1d4+3, Bite ); SQ: Scent (Ex); AL N; SV Fort + 11, Ref + 9, Will + 5; STR 22, DEX 13, CON 17, INT 1, WIS 13, CHA 6.
Skills: Listen + 7, Spot + 7.

Bronwyn is 6’4” and weighs an even 200-lbs. She has shoulder-length coal black hair, and pale grey-blue eyes. She has broad shoulders, and is very muscular.

Bronwyn has encountered a powerful warrior in combat while exploring some strange ruined city in an ancient, magical forest. Due to the ebb and flow of combat, she was knocked unconscious and captured by the enemy. The leader of the enemy forces that were fighting against the party is the warrior Ghandethar. Ghandethar is 7’6” and weighs some 420-lbs, and has an awesome physique. He is bald, and also quite handsome. Ghandethar is a Wyrd/Half-Titan, Fighter 30.

Lord Ghandethar held her captive for over six weeks, interrogating her about the party’s goals, history, and operations. During this time, Bronwyn was treated well, and with courtesy by Lord Ghandethar. Lord Ghandethar is the leader of a company of evil adventurers, and has been charged by their Shadow Dragon overlords to maintain security in the area of the ruined city, namely, to kill or capture any foreign invaders.

Lord Ghandethar seduced Bronwyn while she was held captive, and a strange sort of attraction developed between the two characters. During her captivity with Ghandethar and his company, they were attacked by a large force of evil frost giants. During the struggle, Ghandethar saved Bronwyn’s life, and ferociously fought and defeated the evil frost giants during the desperate battle.

After some six weeks of traveling with Lord Ghandethar and his group, Ghandethar let her go, with all of her possessions. Ghandethar gave her a mithril necklace, set with a dozen shimmering rubies of fantastic beauty and great value.

In truth, Ghandethar has previously been spying on the party, and sought to corrupt some member of the group, and selected Bronwyn. However, even though he let her go, he is genuinely attracted to her, and has been smitten by her beauty and her persuasive personality. His plans have not gone quite the way he had anticipated.

Some weeks later, Bronwyn’s group were exploring a subterranean temple, and she discovered Ghandethar resting in an enchanted grotto, with a sparkling waterfall. Bronwyn socialized with Ghandethar throughout the evening, before returning to her own company. When questioned by concerned party members as to her whereabouts, she causally remarked that she had gone off to explore, and to pray and worship.

Though she hasn’t “Betrayed” the party, would some of you think she should suffer for her actions? Not only is she associating with characters that are not only not good, but they are evil. In addition, she is engaging in being, shall we say, less than honest. What might be the response of a cleric of her deity in the party? What response might her deity make? Naturally, should her lover, Vandor, a powerful paladin in the group learn of her actions, he will certainly be upset. The rest of the company would no doubt take a dim view of her actions, especially since she is also considered the party’s leader.

The two adventuring groups are certain to come into conflict again sometime in the future, and these elements will no doubt come to a flash-point.

I appreciate your thoughts on these developments!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[LuYangShih]

I think this is the first time I have seen you describe a Paladin in your campaign world that has more than two dimensions to them. I say give her bonus experience!

 

[HeavyG]

Bronwyn ?

Isn't that the woman who had a minotaur companion who fell in love with her ?

Anyway, I certainly see some interesting developments in your campaign in the next sessions Shark.

Naturally, how the other PCs respond is up to them and we don't know their motivation or personality, but it were me, I'd throw her out of the party if I discovered it. There's also no way her deity will take this well.

 

[HeavyG]

Oh, and can you help me convince my DM to use your way of rolling for stats, please ?

 

[LuYangShih]

Cannot a character be more than what is printed as their class? A handsome, pleasant, powerful, well mannered man courts Bronwyn, gives her wonderful gifts, saves her life, and shows genuine interest in her, and she is supposed to show not an inkling of interest? Besides, there is a great possibility of a redemption story, or a tragic love gone wrong... Personally I would not want to kill that by instituting penalties this early.

PS

Does she say "By Valkurs mighty blade!" a lot?

 

[reapersaurus]

Are you interested in the classic 3E view, and/or our personal opinions, SHARK?

In 3E, she is already in deep water because of what you mentioned:
She is knowingly associating with an evil character.
Not only that, but she is fornicating out of wedlock with not only an evil character, but 'cheating' on her (assumed faithful) paladin lover.

As for the uncomplete truth when asked about her whereabouts.... by the book, that's not a problem, AFAIK.
But in reality, that IS being secretive, and dangerously close to lying.

A paladin doesn't rely on the textbook example of "lying".
While she didn't technically lie, she acted like a criminal on the witness stand, not being forthcoming about her whereabouts and dodging the obvious intent of her concerned partymembers.

So she is in hot water multiple ways if she is a 3E paladin.

But since she's in your world, where many of the classic approaches to paladins don't apply, than my personal take is that she is being duplicitous, and is guilty of actions not befitting a holy warrior, and should be punished by her god and when her party finds out, there would be a SEVERE loss of trust, to the point where they should be questioning her dedication to Good.

 

[clark411]

Is there a specific paladin code that Bronwyn follows? if not, are there any assumptions made by the party/campaign world for what paladins should and should not do (ie- standard chivalry)?

From DND Standards:
she lied. (half truths are for half paladins.)
she socialized with evil. (tsk tsk)


I probably wouldn't penalize her quite yet.. one aspect of being a paladin is the redemption aspect. Booting evil repeatedly is good, but having an evil person atone by say.. falling in love with you, saving your life, and generally starting the inklings of turning a new leaf in life is even better. Part of the life of a paladin is interacting with evil- whether with swords or words, and they should not be punished necessarily for having interactions with "the other side."

However, if a paladin is doing this for selfish reasons- then she might be falling from grace. I'd think a level 20 paladin with 25 wisdom, and 15 intelligence would realize the potential reprocussions of walking the path she is well before the actual effects (losing powers) would kick in. On the other hand.. I want to take that back, because those insane stats Bronwyn has shouldn't be a crutch in every situation.


ps"
S25 D15 C15 I15 W25 C30! ... dear god! I don't even want to know how your characters get this big. At least with the general stats you give for the foes (Level 30 wyrd half-titan) I know they need those stats.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Great responses gang! Very interesting indeed! As for Bronwyn's stats, well, she has a Belt of Giant Strength +6 (31-6=25); and she gained a magic book that increased her strength by +5; (25-5=20); she started out with a strength of 18, and drank from a holy water horn as a reward for rescuing a Ghaele from the clutches of the forces of Darkness! (20-2=18);

Next, her 30 Charisma is 30 (+4 for her Rod of Splendor; +5 for an enchanted book; and +3 for going into a magical waterfall after saving a community of elves from a huge assault by ferocious vampires who were trying to kill the Tree of Ellanya in their quest to open up a gate to the demonic realms. She started with an 18 charisma.)

Her wisdom of 25 was gained by her spending her five stat gain points on wisdom; and she gained a +4 bonus from an enchanted book as a reward for leading the defenses of a holy monastery that was the sacred resting grounds of a great hero from the past, as well as being the refuge of a group of blind, white hippo-people, that were under siege from a horde of beastmen, evil giants, and hag-priestesses. Her wisdom was originally 16.

Obviously, all of these exploits were not only challenging, demanding, and very heroic, but they also had significant campaign effects.

Indeed, she's a ferocious beast, but I suppose it is offset by the fact that she plays so well. Bronwyn is played by Christine, and she often develops various story-arcs and gets all into roleplaying the feelings and emotions of her characters, as well as their goals, and even their weaknesses and faults. She really doesn't find much reward in uber-powerful items, and find attribute increases--which connect to her roleplaying opportunities and such, as well as story-rewards like gaining friends and helping others to be far more rewarding for her character, than gold or super-powerful magic items.

She routinely lays her life on the line for creatures and people that need help--even those that aren't party members, and even those that are often incapable of rewarding her in some great way. Thus, I have thought that her god would gaze upon her with favour, and bless her--in light of the fact that she is of exemplary courage and self-sacrificial, she has evolved into being a famous champion.

Heavy G: Oh, yeah, she is the same Bronwyn that had a Minotaur fall in love with her. He fell in love with her after she rescued him and invited him to join the group. She has also championed the minotaur's cause before screaming town mobs that wanted to burn him at the stake, as well as defending his right and needs for food when they entered a remote town, where the group was starving. The town didn't want to feed him, and she challenged anyone in the town to righteous armed combat for the right to feed him sufficiently. They fed him well! Afterwards in their journeys together, the minotaur developed not only a deep friendship with her, but was moved to love her for all of her qualities--especially her tireless concern for his welfare and his rights as a sentient creature worthy of love and friendship, but also as a proud minotaur who had shown himself desiring of friendship and acceptance. Ultimately, she did not develop a romantic relationship with the minotaur, but they have remained friends.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[gamecat]

SHARK, I've always questioned the hype about your games. Reading this thread has opened a pair of eyes.

Dude, your campaigns are amazing!

IMC, her paladin status would have been revoked.

 

[LuYangShih]

I disagree that she should have her Paladin status revoked. She has incurred a few minor infractions on the code, but Paladins are not machines. They make mistakes, they have emotions, and they are not perfect. They strive to be, but unless they achieve celestial status, I would say they are not there yet.

If a Paladin instantly lost status the moment they stepped even slightly out of step with the essential rightness of their calling, they would virtually cease to exist. Initially, Bronwyn was captured and forced to "associate" with the villian in question. During this time he showed compassion, courage, honor, and more in his actions towards her. Is it not possible that she saw this, and believing that anyone who possessed the capability of acting so nobly might be worth attempting to redeem, did not immediately sever her connection with the man once free?

Perhaps she thinks he could be redeemed, or perhaps she simply wonders if she should cease to associate with someone who has treated her so well. Certainly, any woman who had a man act as this villian did towards them would be hard pressed to say she felt nothing for him. Lying to her companions was wrong, but it was a minor infraction at worst, and the reasons for her doing so can be easily understood. Her companions did not see or interact with Ghandethar and see his nobler, better side. Likely, he is viewed simply as an enemy, and if she had informed them of what had happened, would there be any guarantee that they would not immediately charge off to slay him, knowing he was in the area?

The situation is not so simple as to instantly demand that she automatically follow the tenets of her deity in the most obvious way. If such a powerful man could be persuaded to join the cause of good, would that not be far better than slaying him on the spot, and giving him no chance at redemption? He has shown he possesses nobler qualities than most villians, at least in his conduct towards her, and does that not warrant a chance for him to turn from the path of the darkness?

And finally, I think that arbitrarily penalizing someone for roleplaying of this caliber makes no sense. She has not yet stepped over the line in my opinion, at least, she merely treads it. With such a wonderful opportunity for classic storylines to develop, I say give her the chance to develop this further.