A problem with the miniatures industry.

Sacrosanct

Legend
Today I was at the FLGS looking for a miniature. I have hundreds of them, and I didn’t have one that would work. So I went to the store. They didn’t have one that would work either.
So what is this elusive mini I was looking for?

one of the players in my group is gender neutral. Their character is also gender neutral. Finding a mini that would work is near impossible. The only minis that appear androgynous or gender neutral are covered from head to toe in robes with deep hoods. Every male PC is super male, and every female mini have the same sized breasts. Did you realize that? I didn’t until today when I looked for a mini that could pass as gender neutral and literally every female mini has a C cup. Every one. Finding a feminine mini with no noticeable breasts is near impossible

in this day when Mattel has released a gender neutral doll lone, and with geeks being pretty progressive, I was a bit surprised that there aren’t really any options for PC races that are androgynous. The best you can do is use an elf male and sorta try to use it.
 

ccs

39th lv DM
It's not a problem with the miniatures industry.
1) It's simply the realities of business - cost vs sales. The big companies, Reaper/WK/etc won't sell enough of them to justify making the mold.
(And I guarantee you that the moment gender neutral Barbie fails to sell enough Mattel will stop producing it. Quietly, but it'll go away.)
2) On every female having C cups.... well, mostly it's design based on the scale of the figure. You're only talking about something around 1.5 inches tall. That's generally going to be seen at 2-3 ft distance. So if you're sculpting a female human etc, making obvious breasts makes it clear what the little thing is at that range.
3) BUT! 3d printing is a thing nowdays. I recommend Hero Forge. You can adjust the measurements of your fig.
 

ccs

39th lv DM
LOL. That is funny.

But, yeah, you have a point. I searched the Reaper Minis site and got exactly one hit for a "neutral" mini:


Yeesh.
Ok, so I stand corrected. Reaper did make a mold. And given that that's a pretty awful sculpt I bet they don't sell many....
 

Dioltach

Adventurer
How about using an elf?

(Note that I'm not being entirely serious here. I agree that minis tend to be lacking in diversity.)
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
It's not a problem with the miniatures industry.
1) It's simply the realities of business - cost vs sales. The big companies, Reaper/WK/etc won't sell enough of them to justify making the mold.
(And I guarantee you that the moment gender neutral Barbie fails to sell enough Mattel will stop producing it. Quietly, but it'll go away.)
2) On every female having C cups.... well, mostly it's design based on the scale of the figure. You're only talking about something around 1.5 inches tall. That's generally going to be seen at 2-3 ft distance. So if you're sculpting a female human etc, making obvious breasts makes it clear what the little thing is at that range.
3) BUT! 3d printing is a thing nowdays. I recommend Hero Forge. You can adjust the measurements of your fig.
There are literally thousands of human fighter type minis out there to choose from. They could make sculpts of androgynous figures with little problem instead of churning out more human male fighters. I mean, right now Reaper is running their Bones V campaign on kickstarter, and one of their figures is dragon holding a pizza wearing a chef's hat. I'm sure gender neutral PCs would be in higher demand than that. After all, anyone could use a gender neutral PC to represent their gendered PC if they like the sculpt. It's not like only gender neutral players are the only ones who can use it.

Not to call them out, but I'd like to hear @Gradine point of view on this, since they are much closer to the issue than I am.
 

darjr

I crit!
Not to be a shill, but you should give Hero Forge or some other similar site a visit and see if you can't just make your own.
It’s a good suggestion, done for shilling or not. But I think it would be nice to have more available generally. Though I see it might be tough market wise. But there are specialty dog adventurer minis. I see a spot in the market that a specialty mini manufacturer could fill.
 
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Undrave

Adventurer
I couldn't even find a simple friggin' Dwarf Druid at my FLGS so I don't doubt it must be pretty hard to find a decent gender neutral figure.

Like Sacrosanct said, nothing precludes you from using a gender neutral sculpt for your gendered character. It's just a question of varied body type.

Good luck Sacrosanct!
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Hero forge is great. Seriously. An awesome tool. But it's sad that someone who is gender neutral has to pay $20-$50 just to get one mini to represent them. Especially when we have the aforementioned comic dragons with pizzas, or dire cabbage, or pumpkin kids out there.

All I'm saying is that maybe instead of the 943rd mini of a human fighter with C cup breasts, they diversify a bit to better represent the people who are playing the game. Not just gender neutral, but different body types
 

Gradine

Archivist
Neither 3d printing nor custom-ordered are anywhere near as accessible (in terms of cost particularly) as walking into a FLGS and finding a fig that matches your character even a little bit.

I don't really use minis in games so I don't have much personal stake in this, but I've stumbled across more than enough queer/trans/non-binary gaming spaces and groups in the past few months to know that there is genuinely a larger market for affordable androgynous/non-binary minis than there currently exists a supply of. I definitely don't buy that this is as much of of a "cost-benefits analysis" so much as it's an awareness issue among the major mini creators. As diverse as gamers have become in recent years (if not decades, really), content creators have often lagged behind.


Edit: I'll note that while it should go without saying, I definitely don't speak on behalf of all trans and/or non-binary gamers. My own experience with transition is pretty atypical as far as these things go, so I definitely wouldn't claim to speak with much significant authority. That said, this seems fairly like a fairly straightforward issue, where there is currently more demand than supply.
 
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Sacrosanct

Legend
There aren't any old people or fat people, either.
Well, there are lots of old people. Just paint the hair white or grey. But there is a distinct lack of fat people. Even Hero Forge doesn't really have the option. You can adjust the weight and belly, but even at max settings, it's just a dad bod and not really fat.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
I once tried to make a mini for a character with a prosthetic leg and boy was that a pain
I guess it depends on how detailed you want it. There have been many times where I cut off parts of minis and cobble together other bits and pieces to get what I want. I removed a leg once and replaced it with a fake leg made from toothpicks
 

Gradine

Archivist
I guess it depends on how detailed you want it. There have been many times where I cut off parts of minis and cobble together other bits and pieces to get what I want. I removed a leg once and replaced it with a fake leg made from toothpicks
If I recall correctly, my solution (using Hero Forge) was robot legs, and pants that had one of the sleeves sheared off. I remembered being fairly frustrated that I couldn't individually change leg types, and I am definitely not the crafty type at all.

I am overall much happier since I made the switch to TotM combat though.
 

Dire Bare

Adventurer
Equating finding minis for "fat and old people" to finding minis for queer or gender neutral folks is insulting. Fantasy gaming is usually aspirational, and most of us like to imagine our heroic characters are fit and, well, heroic. Which has zero to do with our own or our characters gender orientation. Besides, there are plenty of old wizard minis and if you paint your fighter's hair grey . . .

There is also a lot of assumptions that gender neutral minis would not sell. I'd love to see some actual data on that, as I doubt it's true at all.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Equating finding minis for "fat and old people" to finding minis for queer or gender neutral folks is insulting. Fantasy gaming is usually aspirational, and most of us like to imagine our heroic characters are fit and, well, heroic. Which has zero to do with our own or our characters gender orientation. Besides, there are plenty of old wizard minis and if you paint your fighter's hair grey . . .

There is also a lot of assumptions that gender neutral minis would not sell. I'd love to see some actual data on that, as I doubt it's true at all.
Honestly, I don't know how you could have "queer" minis. I mean, queer people look like everyone else. How would a mini look any different from any other mini? Gender neutral is a bit different because then you're going to any non-identifiable gender as an option. The aforementioned androgynous comment I had made. And I don't think it's insulting to equate that with the lack of body types (like overweight) minis. Both cases are people are underrepresented in the mini industry. "Fat" isn't inherently bad, or less heroic or less ideal than musclebound. It's a character. And characters come in all shapes and sizes. Friar Tuck, or Falstaff for example. (and Mr. Incredible and Volstagg) By only having PCs that are supermodels, it sets a false expectation of who can be a hero. That's a message I'm not a fan of.

Saying we should have more diverse choices in our minis for our PCs is a good thing. That includes many traditionally underrepresented groups of people, not just gender neutral.

IMO anyway.
 
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jasper

Rotten DM
What class are you looking for? I have seen fighters in full plate. Named Npcs may do. Some of the DragonHeist/mad Mage minis were lacking gender features except for the name.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
What class are you looking for? I have seen fighters in full plate. Named Npcs may do. Some of the DragonHeist/mad Mage minis were lacking gender features except for the name.
Rogue. If they were an armored fighter, it would be much easier lol. But alas. A regularly clothed rogue that doesn't look like a ninja
 

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