A (probly repeatedly asked) question about Mithral...

[TyCage]

I'm not really in the position to give a long-winded reason other than what the rules say.

The armor doesn't change type by being mithral but it does become lighter (in weight) and encumberance (how it handles).

Armor Check Penalty: Anything heavier than leather hurts your ability to use some of your skills.

(Quote from PHB/Equipment section, not from the SRD)

I think that line from the PHB backs up my position. It's the weight that makes the skill penalty come into play, and mithral armor is lighter, which is why my breastplate (for example) can go from medium to light armor. A mithral breastplate weighs the same as leather armor (15lbs), so it's not heavier than leather. Also a chain shirt is heavier than leather and doesn't cause the penalties, so I think that clears mithral chainmail then.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I guess I'm missing why the proficiency requirement isn't considered a limitation of the armor?

Well, what is a "limitation"?

Different armors and weapons have different pros and cons. Is everything that might be considered a downside a limitation? By that line of reasoning then mithral armor cannot have an armor check penalty at all.

Limitation is a poorly explained concept in D&D, while negative modifiers are very well defined. Our best guess is that limitations are things like "cannot Spring Attack in heavy armor". The ACP for not having the right feat is just a regular everyday negative modifier.

 

[TyCage]

Well, what is a "limitation"?

Different armors and weapons have different pros and cons. Is everything that might be considered a downside a limitation? By that line of reasoning then mithral armor cannot have an armor check penalty at all.

I don't think I've said that the armor can't have any limitations. It just should only have the limitations of light armor.

Limitation is a poorly explained concept in D&D, while negative modifiers are very well defined. Our best guess is that limitations are things like "cannot Spring Attack in heavy armor". The ACP for not having the right feat is just a regular everyday negative modifier.

Someone said that there was an official answer on this, but I've not been able to find anything on it in my searches. "Our best guess" really is subjective and clearly my best guess and your don't agree.

I swear I'm not trying to be a pain about this. I've just not heard an argument that convinces me yet.

Does anyone else remember hearing of something official on this?

 

[Quixon]

Mithral Armor still uses the medium armor proficiency(for a Mithral medium armor for example). It counts as "light" for stuff like a Rogues evasion and a Rangers combat paths ect..but doesn't change the proficiecy needed.

On the WotC boards Andy Collins has posted this is how mithral armors work.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Tycage,

When a game designer uses a peculiar wording it is evidence that they do not mean what a triivally simpler and shorter version of the sentence would mean. Conclusive evidence, it is not. But it is evidence none the less. I understand that sometimes game designers muddy the issue by adding in flavor text intended to clarify things. It does not seem to be the case here.

Why say "mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations" when they could say "mithral armors are one category lighter than normal"?

No offense intended, but if you are going to assert the longer phrase means exactly the same thing as the shorter, the burden of proof is really on you. Your argument seems to boil down to the belief that the game designers really meant "with respect to everything including armor proficiency feats" but they just forgot all about the armor proficiency feats when came to actually writing the rules about mithral.

You may even be right. But do you have any evidence?

.

 

[TyCage]

No offense intended, but if you are going to assert the longer phrase means exactly the same thing as the shorter, the burden of proof is really on you. Your argument seems to boil down to the belief that the game designers really meant "with respect to everything including armor proficiency feats" but they just forgot all about the armor proficiency feats when came to actually writing the rules about mithral.

You may even be right. But do you have any evidence?

No offense taken. That's the best reasoning that I've heard so far. So it looks like it basically boils down to me thinking the sentence was poorly written.

Between what you've said and Quixon's assertion that Andy Colins has spoken about this on the WoTC boards, I think I'm pretty much beat.

Thanks everyone for helping me get a grip on this.

 

[Silverglass]

I think that line from the PHB backs up my position. It's the weight that makes the skill penalty come into play, and mithral armor is lighter, which is why my breastplate (for example) can go from medium to light armor. A mithral breastplate weighs the same as leather armor (15lbs), so it's not heavier than leather. Also a chain shirt is heavier than leather and doesn't cause the penalties, so I think that clears mithral chainmail then.

But that is not bourne out by the figures in the armour table, Banded Mail weighs less than chainmail but has a higher armour check penalty. The one concept that does run through the table is that the less flexible armours have higher penalties. This seems reasonable in that the skills to which the penalty applies are those that generally require mobility and flexibility. Light armours are very flexible, medium armours moderately flexible (or where inflexible like a breastplate this only covers a portion of the body) and the heavy armours cover the body with an inflexible layer. IMO opinion this links both Armour Check penalty and Max Dex Mod to the flexibility of the armour rather than the weight.

The Armour proficencies can not be classed as a limitation strictly speaking as having them or not having them does not prevent the use of the armour (but applies a penalty, which is different from a limit), whereas the restriction in the Tumble skill definitely is a limitation.