A Question About Blackmoor

[Angel Tarragon]

IIRC Blackmoor has an appereance in Living Greyhawk again, but I am not sure to what extend.

I do not own the Living Greyhawk Gazzetteer, but this warrants checking out. If there is mentioned, I would be interested to know how much it is touched upon. If it is more than just one page, it would be worth buying. Thanks for the heads up, Jupp!

 

[Zelligars Apprentice]

I would love to buy it! That was just a happy little rant. As per four different Blackmoors: wacko! I'd love to try to integrate the new (Goodman) Blackmoor into Greyhawk, even if it does just end up being pieces of it here and there. It would alos allow me to get some use out of Ecyclopaedia Arcane: Chronomany.

Wonderful! Go for it! I just didn't want you thinking that you "had" to get the product to complete your Greyhawk collection. That's all.

 

[Zelligars Apprentice]

Blackmoor appears in several settings AFAIK. Initially it was considered its own campaign world/area (created in the late 60s). In the Gygax' GH folio/boxed set Blackmoor was part of the Flanaess. But it was removed from GH and put into Mystara later on. I think it was also mentioned that Blackmoor somehow got removed from the surface (OD&D Supplement 2: Blackmoor, Adventures in Blackmoor, City of the Gods). I am not sure but I think there even exists a Blackmoor in the Realms but that could be just me brain working the wrong way or there is no connection to the Arneson Blackmoor at all.

Blackmoor was never "removed" from Greyhawk. The Greyhawk version is just somewhat different (and far less detailed) than the Mystara version (or any other version).

There is a place in Mystara's Hollow World setting which is connected to Mystara's Blackmoor (the Darklore Elves, I think they're called). I don't know of any other underground Blackmoors out there. I also don't know of any FR connection with Blackmoor.

It's said that the removal of Blackmoor from GH into the Known World was a political decision back then. I think the reason was licensing and intelectual property problems. If memory serves me right it was not EGG that put it there but the dear Mr. Blume and company. But dont hang me up on that one

Yeah, that could be. I don't know the exact politics of the situation. I just know it's there.

IIRC Blackmoor has an appereance in Living Greyhawk again, but I am not sure to what extend.

In the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, the Blackmoor entry takes up about a page and a half. On re-reading it, it looks like they have incorporated some elements of Mr. Arneson's Blackmoor (for example, they mention the Egg of Coot). Of course, they also "Greyhawkized" it (mentioning Iuz's relationship with Blackmoor, among other things).

 

[rounser]

1) Dave Arneson's orginal campaign world. He is co-creator of the original D&D rules, and used them to run his game. This was one of the first D&D settings to be published (I think by Judge's Guild).

2) The nation of Blackmoor in the World of Greyhawk. This was placed there by Gary Gygax as a tribute to Mr. Arneson's contribution to the game.

3) The ancient nation of Blackmoor in Mystara. This was incorporated into Mystaran history after Mr. Arneson wrote a series of modules detailing it for that edition of D&D.

4) The newest product. This appears to be a reworking of Mr. Arneson's original campaign world.

I think you can split your category 1) in two:

The original Blackmoor (your 1) above) is part of the Castles and Crusades Society map.

5) First Fantasy Campaign Blackmoor joined to the top of the Judges Guild Wilderlands map. After The First Fantasy Campaign was published by Judges Guild, it was arranged that the FFC Blackmoor map be directly to the north of the maps for that setting.

In the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, the Blackmoor entry takes up about a page and a half. On re-reading it, it looks like they have incorporated some elements of Mr. Arneson's Blackmoor (for example, they mention the Egg of Coot). Of course, they also "Greyhawkized" it (mentioning Iuz's relationship with Blackmoor, among other things).

This material is lifted from an excellent article by Frederick Weining in the Oerth Journal ("The Archbarony of Blackmoor"; still floating around online, and worth tracking down). I believe Erik Mona is to thank for editing the Oerth Journal, and so it may have been his influence that led it to be incorporated into the LGG.

It begs the question, if the Egg of Coot comes from an alien Blackmoor, as the Oerth Journal article suggests, which of the other four was the Egg airlifted from? My money's on the Mystara one - the Egg got out somehow before the Blackmoor Device (was that what it was called? The engine of the space ship) went off and nuked the place...

 

[DClingman]

Some interesting thoughts. I can tell you that Dave Arneson's Blackmoor does not have any official ties to Greyhawk, though there is some apparent overlap in the "story".

As for the Egg.. I am not telling... It will be made known soon enough.

Dustin

 

[Byrons_Ghost]

My money's on the Mystara one - the Egg got out somehow before the Blackmoor Device (was that what it was called? The engine of the space ship) went off and nuked the place...

The ship that crashed in Blackmoor was the Beagle; as for the engine, you're probably thinking of the Nucleus of the Spheres, which was the artifact left over from the ship millenia later on Mystara. It's kind of murky whether it was the Beagle itself or another device which caused the Great Rain of Fire which wiped out Blackmoor- by this time, Blackmoor had already become highly technological from what they'd taken and learned from the ship. So depending on the Mystaran source it was either the Beagle or something that Blackmoor themselves had made later.

Given the way Mystara was developed, the history and whatnot was subject to change over the years. Also, thematically, there's sort of two Blackmoors- one is the recently published, fantasy campaign setting with slight sci-fi overtures. The other is the mythic history, high-tech empire that left all kinds of weird devices and artifacts all over Mystara. So there's Blackmoor's IC history to confuse things, as well as the history of the setting and how it's handled in various worlds.

There is a place in Mystara's Hollow World setting which is connected to Mystara's Blackmoor (the Darklore Elves, I think they're called).

These were the Blacklore elves, who were present in the latter-day, high tech Blackmoor Mark II that I mentioned above. When Blackmoor was destroyed, the elves were taken to the Hollow World to preserve their culture, which is what the Hollow World was for.

As a side note, every so often we see threads of people who want to use D20 Modern or Future to update a world to present level tech, like FR Modern or whatever. Seems to me like Blackmoor would be the best choice to have both fantasy and sci-fantasy time periods (hint hint, Dustin )

 

[Zelligars Apprentice]

The ship that crashed in Blackmoor was the Beagle; as for the engine, you're probably thinking of the Nucleus of the Spheres, which was the artifact left over from the ship millenia later on Mystara. It's kind of murky whether it was the Beagle itself or another device which caused the Great Rain of Fire which wiped out Blackmoor- by this time, Blackmoor had already become highly technological from what they'd taken and learned from the ship. So depending on the Mystaran source it was either the Beagle or something that Blackmoor themselves had made later.

Given the way Mystara was developed, the history and whatnot was subject to change over the years. Also, thematically, there's sort of two Blackmoors- one is the recently published, fantasy campaign setting with slight sci-fi overtures. The other is the mythic history, high-tech empire that left all kinds of weird devices and artifacts all over Mystara. So there's Blackmoor's IC history to confuse things, as well as the history of the setting and how it's handled in various worlds.



These were the Blacklore elves, who were present in the latter-day, high tech Blackmoor Mark II that I mentioned above. When Blackmoor was destroyed, the elves were taken to the Hollow World to preserve their culture, which is what the Hollow World was for.

As a side note, every so often we see threads of people who want to use D20 Modern or Future to update a world to present level tech, like FR Modern or whatever. Seems to me like Blackmoor would be the best choice to have both fantasy and sci-fantasy time periods (hint hint, Dustin )

Byrons_Ghost and rounser: thanks for the information! That's why I love this website, no matter how obscure the question, you'll find someone who knows the answer!

Now I am contemplating what the most obscure D&D/RPG question is that I could ask, and still get an answer. Hmmm...

 

[DClingman]

Seems to me like Blackmoor would be the best choice to have both fantasy and sci-fantasy time periods (hint hint, Dustin )

Interesting that you have pointed that out. Is someone sneaking you information from within the company?

Dustin

 

[Byrons_Ghost]

Nope. Just been watching the boards, and know enough about the original stuff in the setting.


(You were joking, right?)

 

[Estlor]

Blackmoor in Mystara is kind of a confusing topic. The "cannon" explaination of it has changed a bit over time.

Straight away it was a nation in the distant past that rose to dramatic heights through the infusion of alien technology. How and why that happened differs depending on the source. City of the Gods seems to place the Beagle and its interactions with Blackmoor into a later period of the setting, while the Wrath of the Immortals boxed set paints the picture of Blackmoor as a very primitive setting before it came into contact with the Beagle. In the former, the people of Blackmoor knew about and (somewhat) interacted with the crew of the Beagle at large, whereas in the latter only Obgobin Treel (sp) really interacted with the people of Blackmoor, sabotaging the life support system of the other crew (save Benekander who was a bit of a tinkerer).

In the former's chronology, the Beagle and Blackmoor had some interactions, but it was a smaller portion of the setting (and the sci-fi was played down). Most of the play came between the Cult of the Frog (started by a castoff from the Beagle's crew) and Blackmoor. Blackmoor blew itself up with a nuclear device in this chronology, but the Nucleus of the Spheres still existed as well as the Soul Crystals of the shadow elves, which were mini fragments of the device that obliterated Blackmoor.

In the latter's chronology, Treel allowed the Blackmoor people to strip technology from the ship without regard for its systems, creating a catastrophic state in which the engines would reach meltdown and destroy Mystara. Benekander worked to turn the explosion into an implosion, obliterating the Beagle but leaving the surroundings untouched. The people of Blackmoor learned from what they took off the Beagle and eventually attempted to create another inter-stellar warp drive only to discover the magic of Mystara made it unstable, thus blowing themselves up in the Great Rain of Fire that shifted the axis of the world. Late Mystara products use this timeline and paint Blackmoor relics as potentially explosive devices.

Additionally, where Blackmoor was before it blew up is up to contention. Most sources say Hyborea, which is near the north of Mystara not far from the northern opening to the Hollow World, but migration maps in the Hollow World boxed set and other material does not support this statement.

The Zietgeist/Goodman Blackmoor will eventually go into detail about the Beagle and its technology, but as sci-fi was never a high priority in Arneson's campaign, it won't be one of the first few books.