A Question of Power

[Ahnehnois]

What ability scores do PCs start with, is the question. No poll editing, and it seems to have been cut off a bit.

I can't remember this question being asked recently in any organized fashion, but it seems to play into a lot of things. I'm tagging it as 3e, but feel free to respond with regards to Pathfinder, Trailblazer, or other derivatives that use the same numerical spine.

***Quick note: I'm aware that, as has been discussed recently, ability scores generated by dice rolls are often inflated (by hook or crook, or perhaps with the DM's permission). I'm talking about if you actually followed the rolling methodology exactly as written and the dice produced fair results. If you do 4d6 drop lowest and fudge the dice or roll until you get something good, that's higher than the default.

I understand that most people don't run every campaign at the same power level, so I'm asking what you would describe as typical for you.

I also understand that people generate ability scores in all kinds of ways, so I'm asking you to guess as to an equivalent.

I also understand that there are other campaign variables (starting level, equipment, source access, etc.) that might be interesting to discuss; I'm just separating out starting ability scores to have a discrete topic for this thread.

Power level assumptions like this have a substantial impact on gameplay experience that I think would be interesting to discuss.

 

[Celebrim]

Back 'in the day' I always defaulted to 4d6 take the best three in order.

Now, I default to 32 point buy which is a rather huge jump in assumed power.

I did that because I recognized over time that standard power levels just stressed my players and made them prone to cheating and otherwise unpleasant behavior. Rolled characters that tended to survive and be loved also tended to be the ones that had luckily generated overall stats or at least some key stat above normal. Low point buy also tended to create characters that were dump stating everything but their key stats, and I don't enjoy DMing such characters as much as more well rounded ones.

I also wanted to emphasis strongly that the PCs were, despite low level, truly special and exceptional individuals. I wanted to make a point of making pretty much all NPCs in the world off significantly less point buy, yet still have some room beneath the PC's for 'reasonably competent but not quite heroic' NPCs. I didn't want to be tempted to create any NPC's that had better across the board ability scores than a PC, as so often is encountered in published works.

Also, increased ability scores and some other additional boosts couple well with my strong assumptions about low magic item availability and power level. If PC's weren't inherently more capable, then the balance would be more difficult to manage.

 

[Ranes]

I voted for the default and I play 3.5. However, one thing I'd like to try - because I think it would be fun, even though the last group I floated the idea with wasn't that interested - is this:

Players choose their class and then roll 3d6 in order. Yeah, I know but wait for it. All the NPCs and monsters are created the same way. Each is bespoke and subject to the same constraints as the PCs.

I think it would make for a game that would feel very different from the norm until quite high level. When I suggested it to a group a few years ago, they trusted me enough to know I wasn't trying to cheat them out of anything, that I was just intrigued by what might transpire, but they were so happy with 3e's default assumptions that they just wanted our next campaign to be founded on that basis.

I might get away with it if I ever (again) get to run a game for new players with no preconceptions (or rule books).

 

[Ahnehnois]

[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] A few good points in there.

One is the style assumption. Sometimes I'll see people complaining that 3e PCs aren't "heroic" enough. I suspect they haven't played at higher power levels. The problem to me is that the "heroic array" is a bit of a misnomer. That power level is not describing characters who are the cream of the crop, or who would be involved in world-shaping events. The default power level suggests to me characters who are successful quasi-professionals, but not what I would call "heroic".

Another angle is the balance issue. In the core game, spellcasting is a strongly SAD phenomenon, and spellcasters are relatively sheltered from the effects of changes in ability scores outside of their spellcasting ability. Conversely, a nonmagical character always has use for five out of the six scores (Cha is the universal dump stat). Do they always have a good score in everything? No. But if they don't, it matters more. Thus, higher overall ability scores make nonmagical abilities more effective, while lower scores make them ineffective, relative to magic. Monks are much better with high ability scores. Bards are better. Barbarians are better. Wizards? Druids? Not so much.

***

I'm with you on the big picture. The game just doesn't play as well at the default power level as it does at high power. Characters are less interesting and just don't match up to the scope of storytelling I'm trying to do. I almost always use something much higher than the default. The other DMs I've had have trended higher than me. On rare occasions, someone tries a "gritty" game at below the default power level. IME, no one ever uses anything close to the default.

And yet, it's the default.

***

I do ability score by assigning a total modifier value, essentially an unweighted point buy. The standard array has a modifier total of 5. My PCs generally range between 8 and 12; so roughly twice as far above an "average joe" NPC as the default, and with much more flexibility.

 

[Dandu]

I voted for the default and I play 3.5. However, one thing I'd like to try - because I think it would be fun, even though the last group I floated the idea with wasn't that interested - is this:

Players choose their class and then roll 3d6 in order. Yeah, I know but wait for it. All the NPCs and monsters are created the same way. Each is bespoke that subject to the same constraints as the PCs.

I think it would make for a game that would feel very different from the norm until quite high level. When I suggested it to a group a few years ago, they trusted me enough to know I wasn't trying to cheat them out of anything, that I was just intrigued by what might transpire, but they were so happy with 3e's default assumptions that they just wanted our next campaign to be founded on that basis.

I might get away with it if I ever (again) get to run a game for new players with no preconceptions (or rule books).

I'd be perfectly happy to try such a game, but only because I'd proceed to pull shenanigans.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I voted for the default and I play 3.5. However, one thing I'd like to try - because I think it would be fun, even though the last group I floated the idea with wasn't that interested - is this:

Players choose their class and then roll 3d6 in order. Yeah, I know but wait for it. All the NPCs and monsters are created the same way. Each is bespoke that subject to the same constraints as the PCs..

That would be interesting.

If you make a character choose class and then roll, there's a very high chance that a member of a spellcasting class would not even be able to cast spells. What does a 6 Int wizard do? I would have them roll ability scores first and then pick classes; seems more fair to me.

Of course, with 3d6 in order, you have an enormous amount of variance. You might have one character be fairly powerful and the next one be looking up at the average commoner.

Quite an undertaking, but it would be interesting.

 

[Dandu]

That would be interesting.

If you make a character choose class and then roll, there's a very high chance that a member of a spellcasting class would not even be able to cast spells. What does a 6 Int wizard do?

Perhaps he got in on a sport scholarship?

 

[Ranes]

If you make a character choose class and then roll, there's a very high chance that a member of a spellcasting class would not even be able to cast spells. What does a 6 Int wizard do?

The same thing as his 6 Wis evil cleric foe.

I'd be perfectly happy to try such a game, but only because I'd proceed to pull shenanigans.

Isn't that true of any game you'd be perfectly happy to try?

 

[Ahnehnois]

The same thing as his 6 Wis evil cleric foe.

I'm not saying your approach here isn't fair, per se. I'm saying that it's odd that someone with no aptitude for a field could end up in it. You'd think that a child with no Charisma would never manifest any magical talent that would lead to him becoming a sorcerer in the first place, or that a child with low Intelligence would be unable to find a school or mentor to train him as a wizard. To a lesser extent, the same is true of all the classes; a fighter with no Strength or Con perhaps ought to reconsider his profession by the time he reaches the starting age for his class.

To me it makes more sense to roll the array and then decide what path the character pursues. But hey, play how you like.

 

[Ranes]

Taking your point about classes like the sorcerer first, yes, my proposal is particularly weak when it comes to inherent abilities. Perhaps such classes wouldn't be appropriate at all in a campaign like this.

However, it does lead to some other interesting possibilities. The student of wizardry spends his first few levels learning to read magic or the church that just doesn't find promising initiates all that often (and those who are would be perceived in a very different light to similar characters in the default demographic). Prodigies would make formidable opponents and those in particular that were encountered at low level would present a great challenge. If not stopped early, they might very well become unstoppable. But it's a scenario in which heroes are truly those who win against the odds.

It would be a world in which there would be less magic and more risk, that's for sure. Some might call it grim and gritty. I'm just curious as to the kinds of encounters and problem solving it might lead to.