A request for input on the FR Nations and their relative strength
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Hmmm ... I need more input ...
Janos Antero
First Post
It's worse than that, as I said earlier, within the last 5 or so years of FR time according to novels:
Halruua had a war with Mulhorand that was devestating for both. Halruua then had a second civil war internally.
Shade fell.
Cormyr has had 2 major wars, one revolving around the death of Azoun, and the second with Shade, including the absolute destruction of Tilverton into an abyssal pit thing, and more than 60% casualties to the Purple Dragons/War Wizards.
Waterdeep fought both the Taker and Shade, and had it's armies heavily defeated and nearly destroyed in the latter battle.
Evermeet had the major attack, and further losses fighting the Phaerimm of the Anauroch.
Eveska was nearly totally wiped out, and the city is in total ruins.
Silver Marches lost troops battling Shade, and more troops in a series of new wars against Orcs.
Sembia lost a good portion of it's army to Shade.
Phaerimm of the Anauroch were all but wiped out.
Dalelands lost a good portion of it's army to Shade.
The Taker ravaged the entire Sea of Fallen Stars, heavily damaging several cities.
Zhentil Keep lost two expeditions, trade routes through the Anauroch, and many troops.
Lloth's disapperance in the underdark has resulted in the destruction of Ched Nasad and another city, and Menzo and most others had major riots that destroyed huge chunks of the cityt.
FR has had so much war, destruction, and conflict lately it's gotten almost absurd from a novel point of view. They need to seriously cap how many wars/conflicts happen in the novel line.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Dear Gods. It sounds like the novelists read my IRs, and took them to heart. (!!)
What book was the Shade War in? It sounds like the Shade went all out ballistic. They went down, but they took down half the Northern Realms with them.
Mulhorand attacked Halruaa?? Weren't they busy invading Unther? Big ambitions! (and we thought Thay was the aggressor ...)
Who are the Takers? What book were they in? Just exactly how much destruction of the Inner Sea region did they cause?
And how did yet ANOTHER assault manage to reach Evermeet?! (It isn't like Evermeet wasn't wrecked from the last one.)
What books are all these wars in?
What book was the Shade War in? It sounds like the Shade went all out ballistic. They went down, but they took down half the Northern Realms with them.
Mulhorand attacked Halruaa?? Weren't they busy invading Unther? Big ambitions! (and we thought Thay was the aggressor ...)
Who are the Takers? What book were they in? Just exactly how much destruction of the Inner Sea region did they cause?
And how did yet ANOTHER assault manage to reach Evermeet?! (It isn't like Evermeet wasn't wrecked from the last one.)
What books are all these wars in?
Last edited:
Janos Antero
First Post
The Shade conflict is in Return of the Archmages.
Counselers and Kings is the series documenting Halruua. Mulhorand invades and has it's arse beaten, but there isn't much detail given to Mulhorand.
The Taker was a demi-being, early epic character who was a lover of Umberlee, and lead the Saughain to great victories, first attacking Waterdeep, then Baldur's Gate and finally the Sea of Fallen Stars. He is indirectly responsible for the ancient elven undersea kingdom that has begun trading with the surface again (name escapes me, but it was Myth something).
Taker saga is from Threat from the Sea.
The Evermeet saga is documented first in Evermeet: Isle of Elves, and then again in Return of the Archmages.
Everska was trapped within its own Mythal by Shade/Phaerimm, and Evermeet lent heavy aid to try and defend the last Elven ground settlement.
Counselers and Kings is the series documenting Halruua. Mulhorand invades and has it's arse beaten, but there isn't much detail given to Mulhorand.
The Taker was a demi-being, early epic character who was a lover of Umberlee, and lead the Saughain to great victories, first attacking Waterdeep, then Baldur's Gate and finally the Sea of Fallen Stars. He is indirectly responsible for the ancient elven undersea kingdom that has begun trading with the surface again (name escapes me, but it was Myth something).
Taker saga is from Threat from the Sea.
The Evermeet saga is documented first in Evermeet: Isle of Elves, and then again in Return of the Archmages.
Everska was trapped within its own Mythal by Shade/Phaerimm, and Evermeet lent heavy aid to try and defend the last Elven ground settlement.
Edena,
It may be too late (or you may not want) to change your power calculation at this point, but I was noticing some things that could perhaps be better represented. I readily admit I know little or nothing about the Realms, but if what I read in this thread is true, then you may want to take into account a sense of nationalism and if you are going to factor population into this then perhaps population should be the base on which the other numbers are formulated. Let me explain.
The level of Nationalism – being roughly defined as how much the people living in any given area feel as if they are part of a larger whole – would be a critical factor in determining a county’s ability to project power or concentrate on a specific goal for a long period of time. Let’s take Aglarond for example (again, I know nothing about the Realms so this example might not be accurate, but it should demonstrate what I mean). According to William’s post, it has a population of 1, 270,080. 64% of its population is human, 30% is half-elven, 5% is elven, and 1% other. The question is, of the population, how many consider themselves Aglarondians, and how many are just tribes or clans, or what have you, which just happen to live in a territory called Aglarond? If you have a situation where the level of nationalism is high then a leader could count on most if not all of their population to take on monumental tasks, while a lower sense of Nationalism would mean that fewer people could be counted on (and hence be less powerful overall).
If you treated Nationalism as a fraction, with 1 being 100% and .1 the lowest possible level. You could then get a better grasp on how much actual people power you can apply to a given task. A given territory might have a huge population, but if its citizens didn’t have much of sense of unity, then it is awfully hard for a leader to mobilize and direct those resources. Sure, those various clans might band together effectively for a time under a strong leader when faced with a common threat, but be incapable of projecting any sustainable power. So, continuing the example, lets say that among the humans, there is a extremely high sense of nationalism in Aglarond (say 1), but the elves of Aglarond tend to be more clannish, or they just tend to distance themselves from non-elf affairs (say a level of .2), and that half of the half-elves side with the humans, and half with the elves (a nationalism level of say .6), that gives us roughly:
(810,000 x1) + (381,000 x .6) + (63,500 x .2) = 1,051,300
So out of Aglarond’s total population 1,270,080 about 83% of the population is going to answer the leader’s call (a pretty good number). Now that we have determined that, we could use that number to determine how those resources are being spent. Assuming that you are talking about an IR type of situation again, you could categorize it like this:
Military – What percentage of your active population is assigned to the military, assuming that you wanted this to resemble anything at least remotely realistic you would want to cap this at about 50%.
Taxes -- This extremely general category would represent how much of you population is focused on trade of goods and services that are easily taxable, as well as bureaucracy. After all, since you are speaking at country level, it is taxes that count. Your Tax percentage would half to relate somehow to your other expenditures, especially the military. Lets say for this sake that it can’t be lower than your Military + Infrastructure + Magical Power + Technological Research to break even. This could surplus or you could go into deficits
Industry – Again, a general category, not only representing the ability to manufacture things (swords, armor, fortifications, etc.), but also actively search for new pockets of natural resources (can’t make steel without iron)
Magical Power – Pretty self-explanatory.
Technological Research – Assuming an IR situation, this number would be used to determine how fast you could advance technologically.
Food – Again, pretty self explanatory, but also takes into account those members of the population that isn’t doing anything else (for example, the very old and very young). To be anywhere near realistic, this probably shouldn’t drop below 20%. This could also be rolled over as surplus, or go into deficits, thus causing famine and decreasing your population.
Infrastructure – This represents things like monuments, temples, parks, aqueducts, schools, police forces, fire departments, art, theaters, etc. These types of things would be used to increase or maintain your level of nationalism. Lets say a expenditure of 5% is needed to maintain your currently level of nationalism, anything above that accumulates until you reach a certain point, say 100, and your nationalism percentage goes up by .1.
So our pretend Aglarond, might look like this (forgive me if the math is off):
Military: 1% or 10,513
Taxes: 20% or 210,260
Industry: 20% or 210,260
Magical Power: 1% or 10, 513
Technological Research: 0% (No IR as of yet)
Food: 50% or 525,600
Infrastructure: 9% or 94,617
Now, your Leadership and Political Will scores would be used as multipliers to those base numbers. Your Leadership ability would be used for one of the categories (a person can only concentrate on so many things at a time), while your Political Will would be used for the others (since the leader is looking at something else right now, the Bureaucracy has to oversee the rest). Using your Strong ranking in each category, and using fractions (.9 instead of 9) to get smaller numbers to work with:
Military: 10,513 x .9 = 9,461
Taxes: 210,260 x .9 = 189,234
Industry: 210,260 x .9 = 189,234
Magical Power: 10,513 x .9 = 9,461
Technological Research: 0 x .9 = 0
Food: 525,600 x .9 = 473,040
Infrastructure: 94,617 x .9 = 85,155
Divide those totals by 1000 just to make them easier to work with:
Military: 9.4
Taxes: 189.2 (thus running a surplus of 85.3)
Industry: 189.2
Magical Power: 9.4
Technological Research: 0
Food: 473.0 (if you added up all other categories and compared this total I would be running a deficit of about –10 right now, maybe I need to recalculate my distribution just slightly, or maybe this formula just doesn’t work….
)
Infrastructure: 85.1
For a total power level of 955.3.
I just came up with these formulas off the top of my head, and they aren’t entirely worked through (I can already see some holes myself), not to mention that it is more complicated than the original formula that Gez came up with, and there is certainly nothing wrong with Gez’s formula. I do think that this allows you to take into account population in a slightly more realistic way, however. Also assuming that you are using this in an IR. It would allow you to account for captured territory more realistically. You would get access to more resources, but their Nationalism level would initially start out very low (.1) but over time with the expenditures on Infrastructure they would eventually be brought into the fold, thus creating a greater whole. Also, it would give you some numbers to base decisions on (Could the people of Aglarond build those fortification before the invasion force arrives? Well, he did spend X on Industry this turn…). Also, as people die in battle, and they are replaced, those people have to come from somewhere, meaning that that some other area must suffer (such as food production ).
Or I could just be insane
It may be too late (or you may not want) to change your power calculation at this point, but I was noticing some things that could perhaps be better represented. I readily admit I know little or nothing about the Realms, but if what I read in this thread is true, then you may want to take into account a sense of nationalism and if you are going to factor population into this then perhaps population should be the base on which the other numbers are formulated. Let me explain.
The level of Nationalism – being roughly defined as how much the people living in any given area feel as if they are part of a larger whole – would be a critical factor in determining a county’s ability to project power or concentrate on a specific goal for a long period of time. Let’s take Aglarond for example (again, I know nothing about the Realms so this example might not be accurate, but it should demonstrate what I mean). According to William’s post, it has a population of 1, 270,080. 64% of its population is human, 30% is half-elven, 5% is elven, and 1% other. The question is, of the population, how many consider themselves Aglarondians, and how many are just tribes or clans, or what have you, which just happen to live in a territory called Aglarond? If you have a situation where the level of nationalism is high then a leader could count on most if not all of their population to take on monumental tasks, while a lower sense of Nationalism would mean that fewer people could be counted on (and hence be less powerful overall).
If you treated Nationalism as a fraction, with 1 being 100% and .1 the lowest possible level. You could then get a better grasp on how much actual people power you can apply to a given task. A given territory might have a huge population, but if its citizens didn’t have much of sense of unity, then it is awfully hard for a leader to mobilize and direct those resources. Sure, those various clans might band together effectively for a time under a strong leader when faced with a common threat, but be incapable of projecting any sustainable power. So, continuing the example, lets say that among the humans, there is a extremely high sense of nationalism in Aglarond (say 1), but the elves of Aglarond tend to be more clannish, or they just tend to distance themselves from non-elf affairs (say a level of .2), and that half of the half-elves side with the humans, and half with the elves (a nationalism level of say .6), that gives us roughly:
(810,000 x1) + (381,000 x .6) + (63,500 x .2) = 1,051,300
So out of Aglarond’s total population 1,270,080 about 83% of the population is going to answer the leader’s call (a pretty good number). Now that we have determined that, we could use that number to determine how those resources are being spent. Assuming that you are talking about an IR type of situation again, you could categorize it like this:
Military – What percentage of your active population is assigned to the military, assuming that you wanted this to resemble anything at least remotely realistic you would want to cap this at about 50%.
Taxes -- This extremely general category would represent how much of you population is focused on trade of goods and services that are easily taxable, as well as bureaucracy. After all, since you are speaking at country level, it is taxes that count. Your Tax percentage would half to relate somehow to your other expenditures, especially the military. Lets say for this sake that it can’t be lower than your Military + Infrastructure + Magical Power + Technological Research to break even. This could surplus or you could go into deficits
Industry – Again, a general category, not only representing the ability to manufacture things (swords, armor, fortifications, etc.), but also actively search for new pockets of natural resources (can’t make steel without iron)
Magical Power – Pretty self-explanatory.
Technological Research – Assuming an IR situation, this number would be used to determine how fast you could advance technologically.
Food – Again, pretty self explanatory, but also takes into account those members of the population that isn’t doing anything else (for example, the very old and very young). To be anywhere near realistic, this probably shouldn’t drop below 20%. This could also be rolled over as surplus, or go into deficits, thus causing famine and decreasing your population.
Infrastructure – This represents things like monuments, temples, parks, aqueducts, schools, police forces, fire departments, art, theaters, etc. These types of things would be used to increase or maintain your level of nationalism. Lets say a expenditure of 5% is needed to maintain your currently level of nationalism, anything above that accumulates until you reach a certain point, say 100, and your nationalism percentage goes up by .1.
So our pretend Aglarond, might look like this (forgive me if the math is off):
Military: 1% or 10,513
Taxes: 20% or 210,260
Industry: 20% or 210,260
Magical Power: 1% or 10, 513
Technological Research: 0% (No IR as of yet)
Food: 50% or 525,600
Infrastructure: 9% or 94,617
Now, your Leadership and Political Will scores would be used as multipliers to those base numbers. Your Leadership ability would be used for one of the categories (a person can only concentrate on so many things at a time), while your Political Will would be used for the others (since the leader is looking at something else right now, the Bureaucracy has to oversee the rest). Using your Strong ranking in each category, and using fractions (.9 instead of 9) to get smaller numbers to work with:
Military: 10,513 x .9 = 9,461
Taxes: 210,260 x .9 = 189,234
Industry: 210,260 x .9 = 189,234
Magical Power: 10,513 x .9 = 9,461
Technological Research: 0 x .9 = 0
Food: 525,600 x .9 = 473,040
Infrastructure: 94,617 x .9 = 85,155
Divide those totals by 1000 just to make them easier to work with:
Military: 9.4
Taxes: 189.2 (thus running a surplus of 85.3)
Industry: 189.2
Magical Power: 9.4
Technological Research: 0
Food: 473.0 (if you added up all other categories and compared this total I would be running a deficit of about –10 right now, maybe I need to recalculate my distribution just slightly, or maybe this formula just doesn’t work….
)Infrastructure: 85.1
For a total power level of 955.3.
I just came up with these formulas off the top of my head, and they aren’t entirely worked through (I can already see some holes myself), not to mention that it is more complicated than the original formula that Gez came up with, and there is certainly nothing wrong with Gez’s formula. I do think that this allows you to take into account population in a slightly more realistic way, however. Also assuming that you are using this in an IR. It would allow you to account for captured territory more realistically. You would get access to more resources, but their Nationalism level would initially start out very low (.1) but over time with the expenditures on Infrastructure they would eventually be brought into the fold, thus creating a greater whole. Also, it would give you some numbers to base decisions on (Could the people of Aglarond build those fortification before the invasion force arrives? Well, he did spend X on Industry this turn…). Also, as people die in battle, and they are replaced, those people have to come from somewhere, meaning that that some other area must suffer (such as food production
). Or I could just be insane
William Ronald
Explorer
Unclaimed areas and nations I originally missed
Edena, glad to be of help.
It is hard to estimate some of the populations. Possibly some groups, such as the humanoids of the Realms can be partially computed from the percentage of the population that they make in various lands, and then doing a fudge factor.
On pages 100-101 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book, there is a political map. There are some areas which are listed as unclaimed territory. One exists between The Sword Coast/Western Heartlands, the Savage Fronter, Anauroch, and Cormyr.
Another is sandwiched by Icewind Dale, the Sword Coast North, The Savage Frontier, and the Silver Marches. Another Stretches from the borders of Amn, Tethyr, and Calimshan, between the Shining Plains, Hlondeth, the Lake of Steam, all the way to Hlondeth. Yet another stretches between Thindol, Tashar, Lapalliiyaa, , north of halrua, south of the Shaar, go border Dambrath, and Luiren. A much smaller unclaimed area exishts between the Dragon Coast, the Shining Plains, Hlondeth, and Turmish.
North of the Shaar, between Sespech and Chondath, going south of Chessentia to touch occupied Unther is another unclaimed area. There is a msmall unclaimed area stretching east of the Great Rift, north of Luiren, south of the Shaar to touch, Eastagund and Veldorrn. Finallyh, there is an unclaimed areas south of Murghom, east of Mulhorand, north of the Shaar, Veldorn, and Durpar.
The question is who lives here and how many inhabitants there are in these areas. There are literally unclaimed areas equal in size to such major countries as Mulhorand! So, there is a lot of room still to personalize different parts of the Realms.
There are also some minor nations that I missed initially, which Iwill detail below. Many of these areas are hardly developed at all, giving DMs a great deal of creative freedom.
The following nation is detailed on page 153 of the FRCS:
Lapaliiya: A lose confederation of city states on the southesst shore of the Shinign Sea with industrius merchants and zealous warrioers who place a high value on personal honor and propriety. Duelling over what others would call minor matters is common. The people are akin to those of Chult, and they have at least five major cities. See p. 153 of the FRCS. Population unknown, probably mostly human. Favorite deities include Ilmater, Kelemvor, Selune, Talos, and Waukeen in the five big cities. It is skethced n
The following nations are sketched on pages 164-165 of the FRCS.
The Ride: An open Steppe between the Dragon spine Mountains, the Border Forest, and the Grey land of Thar, is the home of many tribes of mounted Barbarians. They faoutght the Zhentarim and there are mines run by Melvaunt and Zhentil Keep. Population: Unknown, probably mostly human. Deities of war, horses, and travel would likely be popular here.
Thar Also called the great Grey land, it is a moor with a harsh climate. Home of ogres and orcs, who speak of legends of a great kingdom. Manticores, giant lizards, bulettes, and yrthaks. There is a human settlement in Glister. Population, unknown.
The Tortured Land: Norht of hte Moonsea, this area seems to look like the Badlands of the Western United States. The land has strange monsters. Population, unknown.
The following nations are sketched on pages 198-199 of the FRCS:
Dambrath: South of the Shaar, and east of Luiren, this was once the huan kingdom of Arkaiun. The dtow over came them, and with a cult of Lociator worshippers conquered the Arkaiun people. The nation is human but ruled by half elves of largely dtow descent, with Loviatar as the patron deity of the land. Obviously an evil land, but one that could be a source for a truly epic struggle of good against evil. Population, unknown. (My guess is that there would be a drow minority, a somewhat larger group of half-elves, and the rest human. Maybe a mix of the following groups would be reasonable: (humans 85%, half-elves (drow) 10%, drow 4%, half-elves 1%)
Veldonn: Immediately east of the Shaar, this is also called the land of monsters. The monstrous inhabitants have a mutual defemse pact. Population unknown. Probably all manners of humanoids and lizard folks, with a few other more powerful creatures.
Estagund: East of Luiren and bordered by Veldorn and Durpar, this land is culturally akin to Durpar and Var the Golden. They are ruled by noble warriors, and with Durpar and Var the Golden, the people folow a moral and pantheon code called the Adama. The capital of Chavyondat is ruled gy the Rajah of Estagund, a lawful good human aristocrat. Population unknown, but seems very civilized. Probably mostly human.
Durpar: Durpar, east of Estagund, on the east shore of an inlet called the Golden Water. It is ruled by the leadersof 11 wealthy merchant houses, and its LG ruler is one of the richest rulers in Faerun. The people worship a small group of Faerunian deities. The capitol is Vaelen. Population, unknown.
Var the Golden: The furthest place east on the south portion of the FRCS maps, this nation lands on the south shore of the Golden Water. It is a land that produces much grain, and is a place of great political intrigue. Merchants, nobles, and priests compete for power. They are close to unseatign a ruler who is secretly an ancient blue dragon. Population, unknown. Mostly human, I suspect. Most people would likely be of LN or LG alignment, with some LE. (Speculation, but it is culturally akin to Durpar and Estagund.)
The Border Kingdoms are included in the population of the Moonsea region. There have been a lot of details on the Border Kingdoms over at the FR section of the Wizards of the Coast Site. The Pirate Isles are included in the Dragon Coast entry.
Edena, glad to be of help.
It is hard to estimate some of the populations. Possibly some groups, such as the humanoids of the Realms can be partially computed from the percentage of the population that they make in various lands, and then doing a fudge factor.
On pages 100-101 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book, there is a political map. There are some areas which are listed as unclaimed territory. One exists between The Sword Coast/Western Heartlands, the Savage Fronter, Anauroch, and Cormyr.
Another is sandwiched by Icewind Dale, the Sword Coast North, The Savage Frontier, and the Silver Marches. Another Stretches from the borders of Amn, Tethyr, and Calimshan, between the Shining Plains, Hlondeth, the Lake of Steam, all the way to Hlondeth. Yet another stretches between Thindol, Tashar, Lapalliiyaa, , north of halrua, south of the Shaar, go border Dambrath, and Luiren. A much smaller unclaimed area exishts between the Dragon Coast, the Shining Plains, Hlondeth, and Turmish.
North of the Shaar, between Sespech and Chondath, going south of Chessentia to touch occupied Unther is another unclaimed area. There is a msmall unclaimed area stretching east of the Great Rift, north of Luiren, south of the Shaar to touch, Eastagund and Veldorrn. Finallyh, there is an unclaimed areas south of Murghom, east of Mulhorand, north of the Shaar, Veldorn, and Durpar.
The question is who lives here and how many inhabitants there are in these areas. There are literally unclaimed areas equal in size to such major countries as Mulhorand! So, there is a lot of room still to personalize different parts of the Realms.
There are also some minor nations that I missed initially, which Iwill detail below. Many of these areas are hardly developed at all, giving DMs a great deal of creative freedom.
The following nation is detailed on page 153 of the FRCS:
Lapaliiya: A lose confederation of city states on the southesst shore of the Shinign Sea with industrius merchants and zealous warrioers who place a high value on personal honor and propriety. Duelling over what others would call minor matters is common. The people are akin to those of Chult, and they have at least five major cities. See p. 153 of the FRCS. Population unknown, probably mostly human. Favorite deities include Ilmater, Kelemvor, Selune, Talos, and Waukeen in the five big cities. It is skethced n
The following nations are sketched on pages 164-165 of the FRCS.
The Ride: An open Steppe between the Dragon spine Mountains, the Border Forest, and the Grey land of Thar, is the home of many tribes of mounted Barbarians. They faoutght the Zhentarim and there are mines run by Melvaunt and Zhentil Keep. Population: Unknown, probably mostly human. Deities of war, horses, and travel would likely be popular here.
Thar Also called the great Grey land, it is a moor with a harsh climate. Home of ogres and orcs, who speak of legends of a great kingdom. Manticores, giant lizards, bulettes, and yrthaks. There is a human settlement in Glister. Population, unknown.
The Tortured Land: Norht of hte Moonsea, this area seems to look like the Badlands of the Western United States. The land has strange monsters. Population, unknown.
The following nations are sketched on pages 198-199 of the FRCS:
Dambrath: South of the Shaar, and east of Luiren, this was once the huan kingdom of Arkaiun. The dtow over came them, and with a cult of Lociator worshippers conquered the Arkaiun people. The nation is human but ruled by half elves of largely dtow descent, with Loviatar as the patron deity of the land. Obviously an evil land, but one that could be a source for a truly epic struggle of good against evil. Population, unknown. (My guess is that there would be a drow minority, a somewhat larger group of half-elves, and the rest human. Maybe a mix of the following groups would be reasonable: (humans 85%, half-elves (drow) 10%, drow 4%, half-elves 1%)
Veldonn: Immediately east of the Shaar, this is also called the land of monsters. The monstrous inhabitants have a mutual defemse pact. Population unknown. Probably all manners of humanoids and lizard folks, with a few other more powerful creatures.
Estagund: East of Luiren and bordered by Veldorn and Durpar, this land is culturally akin to Durpar and Var the Golden. They are ruled by noble warriors, and with Durpar and Var the Golden, the people folow a moral and pantheon code called the Adama. The capital of Chavyondat is ruled gy the Rajah of Estagund, a lawful good human aristocrat. Population unknown, but seems very civilized. Probably mostly human.
Durpar: Durpar, east of Estagund, on the east shore of an inlet called the Golden Water. It is ruled by the leadersof 11 wealthy merchant houses, and its LG ruler is one of the richest rulers in Faerun. The people worship a small group of Faerunian deities. The capitol is Vaelen. Population, unknown.
Var the Golden: The furthest place east on the south portion of the FRCS maps, this nation lands on the south shore of the Golden Water. It is a land that produces much grain, and is a place of great political intrigue. Merchants, nobles, and priests compete for power. They are close to unseatign a ruler who is secretly an ancient blue dragon. Population, unknown. Mostly human, I suspect. Most people would likely be of LN or LG alignment, with some LE. (Speculation, but it is culturally akin to Durpar and Estagund.)
The Border Kingdoms are included in the population of the Moonsea region. There have been a lot of details on the Border Kingdoms over at the FR section of the Wizards of the Coast Site. The Pirate Isles are included in the Dragon Coast entry.
William Ronald
Explorer
John, Interesting ideas, although I think there are some questions that have to be asked for each nation. A lot of the questions on nationalism may be open to A LOT of individual interpreptation. Indeed, it might be hard to quantify a lot of this because of sketchy information. (I listed countries in my last post that are just barely sketched.)
In a crisis, people may step up to the plate. An effective leader can motivate a nation that could be on the brink of ruin. A relatively strong, but dispirited nation, may easily surrender to its enemies rather than fight on. Both examples have been seen in the real world. (Trying to avoid political references.)
The issue of leadership as well as nationalism is somewhat subjective. It might be very hard to quantify many of the nations, especially those that are little more than city states. For example, in our own world, the Greek city states were often disunited, but did stand together against the Persian Empire at Salamis and Thermopylae.
From reading your post, I think Mulhorand would have a strong sense of nationalism, due to its off-world origins and its deities. I do not know if Edena would like a formal system on the nationalism and food issues. The food production issues are also open to debate. How much food can be grown in an area with magical influence and technology comparable to the 1400s on Earth? Var the Golden would probably do well in the food department.
Good ideas as always, John. However, I do see some possible problems with them. Possibly someone might think of solutions.
In a crisis, people may step up to the plate. An effective leader can motivate a nation that could be on the brink of ruin. A relatively strong, but dispirited nation, may easily surrender to its enemies rather than fight on. Both examples have been seen in the real world. (Trying to avoid political references.)
The issue of leadership as well as nationalism is somewhat subjective. It might be very hard to quantify many of the nations, especially those that are little more than city states. For example, in our own world, the Greek city states were often disunited, but did stand together against the Persian Empire at Salamis and Thermopylae.
From reading your post, I think Mulhorand would have a strong sense of nationalism, due to its off-world origins and its deities. I do not know if Edena would like a formal system on the nationalism and food issues. The food production issues are also open to debate. How much food can be grown in an area with magical influence and technology comparable to the 1400s on Earth? Var the Golden would probably do well in the food department.
Good ideas as always, John. However, I do see some possible problems with them. Possibly someone might think of solutions.
The day I come back to the boards, you're at it again Edena. I should have guessed
In any case, I don't have terribly much knowledge of the Realms, but I do have a thing for math and equations, so if you guys would be interested in a little bit of my input:
Important Factors (things that the strength of a nation depends on):
Population
Communication (within the nation; i.e.- barbarian states woud have lower communication than an organized kingdom)
Lifestyle (health et all)
Morale (could be thought of as devotion to the cause of the nation)
Leadership
Technology
Training
Magic
Adaptability (both a measure of the ability to adapt plans to deal with things that come up, and the ability to develop new tactics/etc preemptively)
Economy (including trading)
Political Influence
Information Gathering (somewhat seperate from political influence, could be thought of as not only spies, but also the ability to get information through political pressure, etc)
Knowledge (also including how well they know the terrain, natural features, along with general knowledge)
Supply (foods and goods raised/built within the nation, stuff the nation doesn't have to trade for)
For ease of use, I recommend each of these be rated on a scale of 1-10 (including population, just come up with a chart for it)
However, each of these is not of the same importance, therefore, I propose their effect on the PL is modified within the formula.
And without further ado, my proposed formula for the PL of a nation:
----------
Social Rating = Population * ( Morale + Economy + Lifestyle + Supply )
Military Rating = ( Population ^ (.1 * Morale ) ) * ( Morale + Communication + Technology + Training )
Political Rating = ( Population ^ (.1 * Morale ) ) * ( Morale + Leadership + Political Influence + Information Gathering )
Miscellaneous Rating = Magic + Adaptability + Knowledge
----------
Total PL = ( Social Rating + Military Rating + Political Rating ) * Miscellaneous Rating
----------
While this is probably the most complicated of all equations presented here, I believe it presents the most accurate guage of a nation's power.
The Social Rating considers peacetime factors, how happy people are, things like that, which is why it is a straight population multiplier.
The Military Rating considers wartime factors, which is why the population multiplier is raised to .1 * Morale, this represents that the higher the morale of your people, the stronger a military you'll be able to raise and upkeep, not only in numbers, but in terms of training, technology, etc.
The Political Rating considers, well, political factors. The population multiplier is raised to .1 * Morale to represent that the higher the morael of your people, the more they'll be involved in the political aspects of the nation/etc, and the more effort they'll put forth in those regards, whether it is something even as small as how they represent your nation while they're traveling abroad.
The Miscellaneous Rating considers everything else. All magic is covered by the Miscellaneous rating (so it shouldn't be factored in anyhwere else), as is knowledge, and adaptability. Since these aspects influence every part of life, peacetime, political, and wartime, the Miscellaneous Rating is multiplied by the sum of the Social, Military, and Political Ratings.
Another thing this system represents well is that a large percentage of the power of a nation is represented by its social rating rather than its political or military ratings. This represents that even the most isolationist nations can quickly enchance their military or political strength with an enthused populace (USA before, during, and after WWII).
This all said, here's a final few notes about the system-
Magic should not be factored in anywhere except the Miscellaneous Rating.
Communication also represents the coordination of a nation. That said, a group of barbarian tribes will have a much lower communication rating than a highly organized kingdom.
----------
Well, it's nice to be back on the boards finally (and to have internet access again).
Any questions about the math?
{edit}- fixed a typo
In any case, I don't have terribly much knowledge of the Realms, but I do have a thing for math and equations, so if you guys would be interested in a little bit of my input:
Important Factors (things that the strength of a nation depends on):
Population
Communication (within the nation; i.e.- barbarian states woud have lower communication than an organized kingdom)
Lifestyle (health et all)
Morale (could be thought of as devotion to the cause of the nation)
Leadership
Technology
Training
Magic
Adaptability (both a measure of the ability to adapt plans to deal with things that come up, and the ability to develop new tactics/etc preemptively)
Economy (including trading)
Political Influence
Information Gathering (somewhat seperate from political influence, could be thought of as not only spies, but also the ability to get information through political pressure, etc)
Knowledge (also including how well they know the terrain, natural features, along with general knowledge)
Supply (foods and goods raised/built within the nation, stuff the nation doesn't have to trade for)
For ease of use, I recommend each of these be rated on a scale of 1-10 (including population, just come up with a chart for it)
However, each of these is not of the same importance, therefore, I propose their effect on the PL is modified within the formula.
And without further ado, my proposed formula for the PL of a nation:
----------
Social Rating = Population * ( Morale + Economy + Lifestyle + Supply )
Military Rating = ( Population ^ (.1 * Morale ) ) * ( Morale + Communication + Technology + Training )
Political Rating = ( Population ^ (.1 * Morale ) ) * ( Morale + Leadership + Political Influence + Information Gathering )
Miscellaneous Rating = Magic + Adaptability + Knowledge
----------
Total PL = ( Social Rating + Military Rating + Political Rating ) * Miscellaneous Rating
----------
While this is probably the most complicated of all equations presented here, I believe it presents the most accurate guage of a nation's power.
The Social Rating considers peacetime factors, how happy people are, things like that, which is why it is a straight population multiplier.
The Military Rating considers wartime factors, which is why the population multiplier is raised to .1 * Morale, this represents that the higher the morale of your people, the stronger a military you'll be able to raise and upkeep, not only in numbers, but in terms of training, technology, etc.
The Political Rating considers, well, political factors. The population multiplier is raised to .1 * Morale to represent that the higher the morael of your people, the more they'll be involved in the political aspects of the nation/etc, and the more effort they'll put forth in those regards, whether it is something even as small as how they represent your nation while they're traveling abroad.
The Miscellaneous Rating considers everything else. All magic is covered by the Miscellaneous rating (so it shouldn't be factored in anyhwere else), as is knowledge, and adaptability. Since these aspects influence every part of life, peacetime, political, and wartime, the Miscellaneous Rating is multiplied by the sum of the Social, Military, and Political Ratings.
Another thing this system represents well is that a large percentage of the power of a nation is represented by its social rating rather than its political or military ratings. This represents that even the most isolationist nations can quickly enchance their military or political strength with an enthused populace (USA before, during, and after WWII).
This all said, here's a final few notes about the system-
Magic should not be factored in anywhere except the Miscellaneous Rating.
Communication also represents the coordination of a nation. That said, a group of barbarian tribes will have a much lower communication rating than a highly organized kingdom.
----------
Well, it's nice to be back on the boards finally (and to have internet access again).
Any questions about the math?
{edit}- fixed a typo
Last edited:
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
I appreciate the input, John. I think the idea of Nationalism is a good one - it might allow for many contested areas to be represented as countries.
And I appreciate this new information, William. It helps complete the list of Faerunian countries.
Nice to hear from you again, Draco! Thank you for the input ... it seems like a good formula to me.
Unfortunately, however, it is all overwhelming.
That is, I am overwhelmed.
And I appreciate this new information, William. It helps complete the list of Faerunian countries.
Nice to hear from you again, Draco! Thank you for the input ... it seems like a good formula to me.
Unfortunately, however, it is all overwhelming.
That is, I am overwhelmed.
Last edited:
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