A Rift in Our Group - "Quickness" and "Deflection" Spells are Ruining Savage Worlds' Combat

Herobizkit

Adventurer
I'm not savvy on Savage Worlds, but I'll ask anyhow. His AC/Deflection might be through the roof, but does that also work on Arrows? Bullets? Traps/Hazards? AoE effects? Status effects? Direct damage spells?

Because at its core, you have a "Defender" who is also a too-competent "Striker". Simply overwhelm him with numbers. Practically every martial arts movie ever does it to the protagonist all the time. Boring to run for YOU, perhaps... but is it that you're annoyed that he's "unbeatable" by standard tactics, or that you just haven't been more diverse in your combat 'arena' presentation?

Also, Send Big Things with Gobs of DR and HP. They always have high AC's and +'s to hit.
 

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Scorpio616

First Post
His contention to this point is that if I choose to house rule these spells (knowing that I will go bat-crap crazy if I don't), I'm essentially "ruining his fun," and negating all of his "hard work" to construct his character. In other words, rather than worrying about how this is not fun for me at all, or thinking of game balance, or the overall vibe at the table, he basically insists that I should be "rewarding" him for his "hard work" of rules mastery, where his idea of "reward" is easy encounters, so he can build up his loot stash to "buy epic gear."
House rule the spells immediately and tell him he should have known better. Maintaining Game Balance is EVERYONE's prerogative, not just the GM's. GM is just the one where the game breaker's buck stops at.
 

innerdude

Legend
I'm not savvy on Savage Worlds, but I'll ask anyhow. His AC/Deflection might be through the roof, but does that also work on Arrows? Bullets? Traps/Hazards? AoE effects? Status effects? Direct damage spells?

Because at its core, you have a "Defender" who is also a too-competent "Striker". Simply overwhelm him with numbers. Practically every martial arts movie ever does it to the protagonist all the time. Boring to run for YOU, perhaps... but is it that you're annoyed that he's "unbeatable" by standard tactics, or that you just haven't been more diverse in your combat 'arena' presentation?

Also, Send Big Things with Gobs of DR and HP. They always have high AC's and +'s to hit.

The nature of the Deflection spell in question is that the bonuses automatically apply to hand-to-hand, ranged, and area-of-effect. Which is frankly why it's more than slightly overpowered, in my opinion.

Imagine Mage Armor in D&D buffed up so that the total AC bonus was +10, and provided DR 5 / - against any and all area of effect spells, regardless of element type---while still being at most a second-level spell.
 

werecorpse

Adventurer
I have a "system mastery guru" in my group. Whenever he finds a cunning way to exploit the rules I just change them on the basis that his character is too powerful and the game I am running is not designed to cope with his character. Sometimes I tell him that I acknowledge that he has "won the game" but that I wish to continue playing without his character "build". He has come to accept this and now often acknowledged the rules loophole before I have to close it. That is the problem with any game as complex as most roleplaying games, even the simplified ones like savage worlds.

Specifically on savage worlds we banned quickness As being the most egregious spell in the book ( just behind summon ally ) but allowed deflection. Maybe you could take this path as a halfway house. Spells usually only last a few rounds and unless you are playing hellfrost you can just let him have his few rounds of protection and do the old d&d trick of resource depletion.

Btw you are playing the spells right using the deluxe rules IMO.
 

A

amerigoV

Guest
House rule the spells immediately and tell him he should have known better. Maintaining Game Balance is EVERYONE's prerogative, not just the GM's. GM is just the one where the game breaker's buck stops at.

Ok - I am going to push back and defend this PC.

First, this is not a case of someone finding obscure rules and cobbling them together to Win the Game (tm). These are core rules and Powers, and the Powers are broad such that they encompass many of the spell concepts one sees in other fantasy games. Plus for those not familiar, Savage Worlds has some swing to it - there is no CR/XP "here is your encounter and you should survive with 25% of your resources expended, +/-2%." There are Bennies to mitigate that Swing for both the players and the GM. But there is not the pure "game balance" that most people think of when they think about D&D.

There is nothing egregious here.


What might help is if you post the character, including the progression. Savage Worlds does not have a true Dump Stat (tm), so everything has importance. Conceptually the player can either build a focused PC with some weaknesses or a broad PC with few weaknesses but is not as effective at any one thing. So to be a good warrior they need decent Strength (for damage), decent Agility, good Fighting, and solid Spirit and Vigor to take the shots. To be a good mage you need good Smarts, decent Spirit, and good Spellcasting skill, and Power Points. A good warrior picks up Edges that allows them to attack more targets, attack more often, or attack more in certain situations (First Strike, Counterstrike). A Mage picks up more Powers, more Power Points (to cast more spells), and Edges to help with spellcasting (Rapid Recharge).

So if this PC is blending the two, then they are sacrificing something to be able to pull it off. At Veteran I can have a Warrior type with Improved Frenzy which gives me an extra attack EVERY ROUND ALL THE TIME - no power points needed. Instead of have d8 in Spellcasting I could have a 2 or 3 dice higher in Fighting which increases my Parry 2 EVERY ROUND ALL THE TIME (plus I will get more Raises, so more damage as well). Instead of picking up Spellcasting and an extra Power , I could have taken Edges like Two Fisted and Ambidextrous - which would give a second-hand attack at no penalty EVERY ROUND ALL THE TIME. I could easily have a swashbuckling swordsman with d12 Fighting and three attacks around with no penalties.

This PC is exchanging all that for some flexibility but at a steep price. They have to cast the spells (risking Backlash twice in the same round - you are enforcing Backlash, aren't you?). They have to spend a whole round doing this - using up 1 of the 3 "free" rounds of this (and using up 6 PPs to active). He has this going for 2 rounds then has to Maintain - that's 3PP per round and -2 to any other Arcane Skill check he decides to do (cast another spell). Then there is Disruption - if he takes damage (including Shaken) while his spells are Maintained he has to roll Spellcasting vs. the Damage and exceed it or he loses BOTH spells. If Shaken from a non-damage source (Tricks anyone?) then he still has to make Smarts Check (and I suspect he has not put much into this if he is more warrior based than spellcaster based). Keep in mind on the damaged version that he is at -2* since the penalty for any Maintained spells is for any arcane check (and minus and Wound Penalties he might have from the attack itself). If the PC is more Warrior build than Mage build, then they are going to run short of PPs. There are only so many fights they can get into with this tactic.

* (for those not familiar with Savage Worlds: -2 is a BIG penalty).

Quite frankly, he is just replicating a focused fighter-type with what you have describe. I think you institute this nerf you need to let him rebuild the PC, and I think you find he can replicate much of what he had without even using an arcane background - so it will be "active" 24/7 instead of just when he casts the spells.


As an aside, we did a full 0XP-100Xp campaign that had Psionist (my PC) and a "wizard" that eventually used Quickness and Bodyguard/Summon spells. My PC had neither, yet I felt my guy was as good overall as the other PC. His PC was really good at "taking out the trash" - lots of Extras would quickly disappear under the waves of creatures and Bolts. My PC was especially good at taking out Wild Cards - Telekinesis them out of the way, Puppet them, etc. After running and playing in Fantasy SW games have no problem with Quickness and Bodyguard/Summoning spells a GM or player. What I did see was that since this other player and I ran rather focused PCs we could really rip things up in combat but we did have other holes in the game - weaknesses (if you ever hit my guy - it was touch and go if he would survive - a glass cannon) and less effective with the non-combat portions. The cool thing is that we likely will go back to this game as some point and I look to short up Weaknesses and other players can build up strengths - there is always some other advance to take!

Now Elan -- that one might be overpowered...I am not completely convinced it is, but another GM in the group would love to ban it.
 

Baumi

Adventurer
Savage World Powers can be crazy powerfull and I don't think that Deflection even counts as broken (easy to counter with aim, group attacks, good skill, etc.). But Quickness is definitely very/too strong and be happy that you players don't use Summoning, which is real Campaign-Killer, since even the best Wild Cards are destroyed when you summon three ogres around the target which can then imminently attack with Ganging Up and Wild Attack Bonuses.

Retroactively changing rules is always bad form, but talk with the player, maybe you can find a good solution that will make you both happy (change the Effect for Quickness, exchange the Power to anyother one,..).

Otherwise just remember that the Players can be very strong/imbalanced as much as they want .. you can send them infinitive amounts of enemies if you want ;)

And by the way you can just increase the "Savage" Part of your combats, why not let the Monsters use the same tricks or even nastier ones? That way players will learn to fear combat again and it should be only the last option to try. That doesn't mean that you should become a Killer-GM, just make the combats more difficult and trickier.
 

Grakarg

Explorer
I'd say that before you want to make any changes to his character, make sure you're running the rules correctly. Perhaps an audit of the character sheet is in order as well.

As ameigoV mentioned, in order to be doing this he is likely sacrificing something else.

Monitor the power point usage. He is spending a bunch of PPs to get this running (with a spellcraft penalty), plus more per round. Normally PP's recharge at 1 per hour. He likely can't pull this off every combat all the time, he'll run out of energy, so you can add a couple of small combats per day and he can run out of oomph before facing the big bad. Its more like a 'daily' ability he should be reserving for big fights.

Deflection can be negated by various means. For example, attacked by a small size critter, they get a +2 for the size difference, negating his deflection, and he is also at a -2 to attack them.

An often overlooked rule: Drawing a weapon is an action... cast a spell and draw a weapon=multiaction penalty on the spell.
 

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