A serious set of questions to Colonel Hardisson and the Scholars of J.R.R. Tolkien

Going north takes much longer and then the party would have a long trip past Mirkwood which the southern part of is controlled by the forces of Sauron.

Going South I think would be destined to fail. Saruman has gathered enough forces that even Elrond with all the strength of Rivendale fears him.

The perfect solution in my mind? Either dump Merry or Pippen or add an 8th member of the fellowship in Glorfindel. Glorfindel alongside Gandalf would have been enough to cleanly defeat the Balrog.

Of course this would have other problems. If Gandalf the Grey does not die then Gandalf the White cannot be born.


Umbran said:


Incorrect. They could return north and try to cross the mountains elsewhere (and face orcs and snow). They could go through Moria and face a Balrog. They can go south and face Saruman (who may or may not be more powerful/dangerous than the Balrog, we have no way to determine for sure). They can go even further south, bypassing Saruman and weather, and enter Gondor from the west (but this takes a lot of time).

The Fellowship had a handfull of options, all of them bad. Which choice is "worst" is a matter of opinion and perspective. Being on the Balrog's front porch, being the guy who has to deal with it if it comes out, Celeborn is within his rights to call it dumb.
 
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DocMoriartty said:
So he is instead guilty of talking when he doesnt know what he was talking about.




That's oversimplifying to try to make a point. Well, then, so did Elrond or Gandalf, who planned the trip in the first place. Celeborn had as much information as anyone could have had, and made decisions based on that information.

Adding Glorfindel would have been less conducive to stealth, which is explicitly stated to be what they hoped to maintain. Glorfindel was way too noticeable to send - he would have literally shown up like a light bulb to Sauron the closer they got to Mordor - the Nazgul certainly saw him as he was, which was mighty in both worlds, a bright, shining figure. Which means that any party with him in it would become a target - Sauron would definitely know something was up as he got closer to Mordor, and Sauron is known for extreme reactions when confronted with such situations. He pretty much launched the assault on Minas Tirith when Aragorn revealed his existence - what would he have done if he'd detected a great elf-lord heading towards Mordor? He'd have had every reason to believe that the Ring was about to be used against him by one of his ancient foes.
 

Courtesy reply to Tleilaxu

Tleilaxu

Hey, can I get the reference for Galadriel aiding Eorl? Just curious

From Edena_of_Neith:

It's in the Book of Unfinished Tales, I believe.

Take a look at the Tolkien section in the bookstore.
You will find a number of supplemental books to Tolkien's main stories (the Hobbit, LOTR.)
Some of these books may be of great interest to you.

The Book of Unfinished Tales is just that.
These are stories written by Tolkien at the prime of his writing skill, written when he wrote LOTR or later, but unfortunately he never finished them.
One such tale is the Narn of Turin Turambar, which will - even in unfinished form - slam you pretty hard, for it is a very tragic story.

Now, if I have the wrong book, and the Journey of Eorl is not in Unfinished Tales, would someone help me and tell Tleilaxu the right book?
I do not have Unfinished Tales here, and my memory is not what it should be.

Thanks much.

Edena_of_Neith
 

I see there is a heated discussion concerning Celeborn.

It need not be heated. Let's discuss this calmly.

After all, there is a great deal, when it comes to Tolkien, worthy of discussion, and it can be a really interesting discussion - if people try to make it so.

Of course, there are disagreements - Doc Moriartty and I seem to be more in agreement, while Colonel Hardisson and Umbran seem to be in agreement on their own point of views.

But let's discuss this. No need to get angry (to quote Gandalf.)

After all, the One Ring is not being carried by one of us, and exerting it's corrupting effect on us readers! :)
 
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Opinions and conjecture

The following is opinion only.
I do not presume to improve on Tolkien, merely to comment on his works.

- - -

I did not remember that Celeborn had stated, to paraphrase him:

You, and all who went with you, would have been disallowed entry into Lothlorien.

That statement requires that I alter my stance.

- - -

Justifications for Celeborn's stance, as I see them:

1) Gimli was a part of the Fellowship, who - because the Ring was with them - awoke the balrog.
2) The balrog could have reached Lothlorien in 5 minutes. It could have destroyed Lothlorien. Galadriel may or may not have been able to defeat it, and save her country.
3) Celeborn was expecting the Fellowship to arrive via the Redhorn Pass, for that had been the preplan set forth by Elrond's sons, and agreed to by Celeborn and Galadriel.
4) Celeborn was a long-time citizen of Doriath, and he watched the dwarves murder his King, then destroy his country.
5) Celeborn watched as Laurelindorian almost disintegrated, and both Nimrodel and Amroth were killed in the mass flight south. A result of the awakening of the balrog - by dwarves.
6) Celeborn had every right to see the way of Moria as folly for the Fellowship.
7) Last, and not least, Celeborn - as Lord of Lothlorien - had the right to do as he pleased.

It is worth noting that Celeborn did change his mind, and quickly, after Galadriel spoke up.
He even rebuked himself for saying what he had said, effectively apologizing to the Fellowship, and asking for forgiveness.

- - -

There were a number of serious mistakes in judgement made, that should not have been made, between the Council of Elrond and the Fellowship arriving in Lothlorien.
This is my opinion only, of course.
Here are the mistakes I see.

Gandalf was mistaken to state he would go with Frodo to the Fire (I believe he did so, in the book.)
There wasn't any way for Gandalf the Grey to carry through with that promise, although he did not realize it - or did he simply lie to Frodo?

Elrond was foolish to establish a Fellowship, for the purpose of protecting Frodo.
Foolish, in that he gave Frodo 8 companions who could be corrupted - thus, he gave him 8 potential enemies.
Furthermore, the presumption that Frodo needed aid is questionable. If Frodo was supposed to get into and through Mordor unaided, it would be a far lesser feat to get TO Mordor unaided.

It was foolish for Gandalf to make for Caradhras.
Even in ordinary temperate mountains, high passes over them are generally blocked in the winter, and if they aren't blocked, conditions up there are truly grim (blizzards, windchills of 70 below, temperatures below 0, avalanches, rockslides, altitude sickness, etc.)
And Caradhras was no ordinary mountain, something Elrond and Gandalf had to have known.

It was very foolish to go to Moria - a point Aragorn and especially Boromir pointed out to Gandalf.
Gandalf had to have known SOMETHING truly horrible lurked in Moria (in the book), since he was around when that something drove the dwarves out, and scared half the population of Laurelindorian into fleeing.
Furthermore, Gandalf had access to Dain, who had actually seen the thing, looking in through the East Gate of Moria.

It was EXTRAORDINARILY stupid for Pippin to have dropped that stone down into the well.
And Pippin cannot be excused for lack of experience - not after The Shire, Old Forest, Barrow-Downs, Weathertop, Flight to the Ford, Hollin, Caradhras, and the Watcher in the Water.

In a very real sense, Pippin murdered Gandalf.
He almost murdered everyone else in the Fellowship, including himself.

Celeborn and Galadriel should have been there, on the northern border of Lothlorien, to greet the Fellowship.
After all, the One Ring doesn't come into your country everyday! It is an IMPORTANT matter of State, and deserves to be treated thus.

Lacking Celeborn and Galadriel ...

Haldir and his border guard should have shown better judgement.
They knew these were not enemies.
They knew these were expected guests.

They should have welcomed the Fellowship as honored guests, not aimed arrows at them, and made mocking remarks.

Haldir and his border guard should have shown better judgement concerning Gimli.
If the law forbad Gimli's entry, then Haldir should have sent to Caras Galadon for instructions with emergency speed.
Until an answer was forthcoming, Gimli should have been accorded trust and courtesy.

Gimli, should have shown better judgement.
It was EXTRAORDINARILY stupid (worse than Pippin) to put his hand to his weapon, while he was covered by the archers of the Lothlorien border guard.

Legolas should have immediately intervened on Gimli's behalf, to avert a disaster.
Instead, Legolas gives a most unhelpful statement: A plague on dwarves and their stiff necks.
Very poor judgement on Legolas's part.

(It is not a wonder that Celeborn might have thought the whole Fellowship a bunch of idiots. LOL.)

- - -

Now, what could the Fellowship have done better?

Well ...

Elrond could have sent Pippin home in a sack.
Or, better yet, Elrond could have knocked some SENSE into Pippin (something that Ugluk and Company were to do, later on.)

Sending Glorfindel in Pippin's place was a good idea, short term.
Bad idea, long term.
The Ring would have had a greater corrupting effect on Glorfindel, for he was of greater Stature.
Sauron would have been made aware of the Fellowship much earlier, and his reaction would have been stronger (as noted by another above.)

Elrond COULD have sent Glorfindel, along with a picked team of elves, as a Red Herring.
A Fake Fellowship.
This Fake Fellowship could have then attempted the most apparently logical course south ... the Gap of Rohan.

Elrond also could have sent more of his people out to harass the servants of the Enemy, to cause confusion, to draw off pursuit from the real Fellowship, and to confuse Saruman and Sauron in general.

Elrond could have sent a team of elves with the real Fellowship.
Since elves are very strong people (they are 7 feet tall with commensurate strength), and because they can walk ON TOP of snow, an elven detachment could easily have passed through the storm on Caradhras.
They could have carried the hobbits in their arms (elves ARE that strong.)
They could have assisted Gandalf, Aragorn, Boromir, and Gimli through the snow - perhaps even creating snowshoes for the beleagued Fellowship. Or carrying THEM short distances at a time.

Elrohir and Elladan could have gone personally with the Fellowship, to aid them, and to ensure a speedy and warm welcome in Lothlorien.

If the party was still forced to go through Moria, Pippin should have been punished for dropping that stone.
By punished, I mean - WHACK! Pippin is out cold. When he awakens, his arms are bound and his mouth gagged - and he is to remain that way as long as the party is in Moria. Nobody speaks to him, and when he is ungagged to eat and drink, he loses teeth everytime he utters a word without permission.

Boromir should never have been sent with the Fellowship.
Period.
It should have been obvious to Gandalf and Elrond that the man was untrustworthy.
Boromir made his stance clear in the Council of Elrond, and he never relented that stance, a clear danger signal.

Haldir should have been given SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS concerning giving the Fellowship a speedy and warm welcome.
And a contingency plan should have been set up, in case any dwarves came along (for they knew, from the sons of Elrond, that dwarves were attending the Council in Imladris.)

And in any case, Haldir and his people should have been a bit more friendly and a bit less condescending.
Their job was to protect Lothlorien, and getting the Fellowship in quickly and safely WAS protecting Lothlorien - Haldir, perhaps, should even have been told of the One Ring, to ensure he understood just how important his mission was.

- - -

Now for some What Ifs.

If Celeborn had heard - somehow - that the balrog was on the loose again, before the Fellowship reached Lothlorien, he would have forbad them entry.
Let us say Galadriel could not talk him out of that stance, for a second.

The Fellowship is trapped.
Pinned, against Lothlorien, as the enemy come pouring down Dimril Dale.
They can flee west, towards the mountains - not a good idea.
They can flee east, to the River Anduin, but it is impassible, no boats are available, and Lothlorien extends to the river's edge.

The orcs catch up with the Fellowship at the River Anduin, and kill all of them.
The orcs recover the Ring (unless, for the second time, it is drowned in Anduin.)
Sauron retakes what is his.
Finis.

A second What If ...

Celeborn is not involved in this one.
Haldir, is.

Gimli, draws his axe, infuriated to the point of stupidity.
One of the archers shoots and kills Gimli.

Result:

Boromir's words ring true to everyone in the Fellowship except Legolas.
Boromir hates and fears the elves more than ever.
Pippin, Merry, and Sam, now fear the elves, and secretly hate the killers of their friend.
Legolas tries to justify the behavior of the elves, which makes everyone except Frodo and Aragorn hate him.

Aragorn is now in an impossible diplomatic situation.
Frodo, has to deal with a second death in the Fellowship, fear and mistrust of the elves, bitterness over Gimli's loss - his power to resist the Ring is weakened as his mind and heart are darkened by the experience.

Indeed, the hearts and minds of all in the Fellowship are darkened, and the One Ring gains greater power over them all.
Meanwhile, they are now divided by anger, bitterness, fear, and in several cases, hate.

The chance of Galadriel being able to effectively communicate with Frodo is lessened.
The chance that Frodo will heed her words is lessened.

The chance of the Fellowship even staying together past Lothlorien is greatly diminished.

Frodo's chances of making it to Mordor, into Mordor, and to the Fire, are greatly diminished.

And think of this: the elves did not show mercy to Gimli. Frodo will remember that. His mind darkened, Frodo might well ignore Gandalf's admonitions concerning mercy.
In other words, Frodo slits Gollum's throat, and has done with it, as Sam would have wanted.

The consequences of that, do not need to be repeated by myself.

- - -

This situation was not handled competently by those involved, except only for Galadriel - and even she could be accused of incompetence, for failing to greet the Fellowship at the border, or for leaving more explicit instructions for Haldir.

Considering that we are talking about the fate of Middle Earth being at stake here, and the handling of the One Ring, competency was needed, don't you think?

- - -

The only reason the Fellowship made it through at all, is because they got LUCKY.

Caradhras was too impatient - it could have waited until the party was way up in the high pass.
Finis for the party, if the storm had come then.

The orc ambush in east Moria was incomplete - they failed to plug the eastern route, and they KNEW of the eastern route (from the Chamber of Mazarbul) since they had come up it to trap Ori and the surviving dwarves.

Gandalf sacrificed his life so Pippin the Idiot and the others could hope to survive - they would not have gotten far with that balrog chasing them!
A balrog cannot be outrun on foot, or on horseback. There is some question, as to whether it can be outrun even on eagleback.

The orcs could have put a strong force at the East Door of Moria.
The exhausted (and minus Gandalf) party runs into that, and is stopped cold.

Gimli could have pulled that axe out.
He WOULD have, in my opinion, if Aragorn hadn't finally broken in with some words of reason.
Then, we have a dead Gimli and a ruined Quest.
All because of some stupid racial thinking and memories of a war from the First Age (in a land now drowned under the Sea, at that.)

- - -

With help like THIS, Frodo and Sam would have been better off going it alone.

I think Frodo and Sam could have made it alone.

If they could trek through Eriador, they could trek through Hollin.
They could see the danger of a snowstorm, and turn back before the snow became too deep.
Frodo could have figured out the riddle of Westgate (he could read elvish, I do believe.)
Frodo would NOT have been dropping any stones down any wells!!!

Frodo knew, even in the books, that he was being stalked by something.
If Gollum had come upon him and Sam, they could have dealt with Gollum as they DID deal with him, later on.

Frodo, by sneaking and hiding, could have avoided any orc traps - if Gollum was subdued and helping, his journey through the rest of Moria would have been quite easy.

Frodo was a diplomat, unlike Gimli.
He would have surrendered to the Lothlorien border guard, been admitted, and he probably could have talked Haldir into allowing Gollum in also (he got Gollum into Penneth Annun alive, didn't he??)

Frodo could have paddled down Anduin as easily as any of them.
He was from Buckland, originally, and knew how to swim - boating would have been right up his alley (even if Sam was terrified of water.)

Frodo would not have had to deal with Boromir, could easily have evaded Ugluk and Company, would have hidden from the Winged Nazgul, and would have ended up - with Gollum and Sam - in the Emyn Muil.

MINUS all the trouble he was treated to, compliments of Fellowship sent forth to protect him.
Protect him? LOL.
They protected him alright ... they ushered him right into that orc-trap, and the spear that would have killed him except for Bilbo's armor. Not to mention several direct hits from orc arrows that also would have killed him, without the mithril armor.
And they sure protected him from Boromir - even knowing Boromir was a danger, they let him walk off, when Frodo was gone ... they knew better than to do that!

Yeah, Celeborn WAS right.
A bunch of idiots came knocking on his doors, with a possible balrog in tow.
Might as well has kicked all their butts into the River Anduin, as a wake up call (hey guys, there is something IMPORTANT to be done here!)
 

Edena_of_Neith said:
I see there is a heated discussion concerning Celeborn.

It need not be heated. Let's discuss this calmly.

After all, there is a great deal, when it comes to Tolkien, worthy of discussion, and it can be a really interesting discussion - if people try to make it so.

Of course, there are disagreements - Doc Moriartty and I seem to be more in agreement, while Colonel Hardisson and Umbran seem to be in agreement on their own point of views.

But let's discuss this. No need to get angry (to quote Gandalf.)

After all, the One Ring is not being carried by one of us, and exerting it's corrupting effect on us readers! :)

I don't think this is a "heated" discussion. It seems more "spirited" than anything. I'm not angry - it would be ridiculous to get angry over such a trivial thing. If anyone else is angry - calm down. It's just a book (or movie), after all.
 

I was under the impression that Glorfindel only looked that way in the book because he was using his power to destroy the Nine Riders.


ColonelHardisson said:



Adding Glorfindel would have been less conducive to stealth, which is explicitly stated to be what they hoped to maintain. Glorfindel was way too noticeable to send - he would have literally shown up like a light bulb to Sauron the closer they got to Mordor - the Nazgul certainly saw him as he was, which was mighty in both worlds, a bright, shining figure. Which means that any party with him in it would become a target - Sauron would definitely know something was up as he got closer to Mordor, and Sauron is known for extreme reactions when confronted with such situations. He pretty much launched the assault on Minas Tirith when Aragorn revealed his existence - what would he have done if he'd detected a great elf-lord heading towards Mordor? He'd have had every reason to believe that the Ring was about to be used against him by one of his ancient foes.
 

Nothing like that was ever said by Tolkien. Here's a quote about it:

"'And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'
'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'
'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes.'"

The Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Chapter 1: Many Meetings.

Remember - Frodo was wearing the Ring when he saw Glorfindel as he is in the spirit world. He saw the Nine Riders in their true forms, and so he also saw Glorfindel in his. As Tolkien says, such mighty elves live in both the spirit and real worlds simultaneously.
 
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None of this suggests that Sauron could track or automatically sense Glorfindel or any other elven lord.



ColonelHardisson said:
Nothing like that was ever said by Tolkien. Here's a quote about it:



Remember - Frodo was wearing the Ring when he saw Glorfindel as he is in the spirit world. He saw the Nine Riders in their true forms, and so he also saw Glorfindel in his. As Tolkien says, such mighty elves live in both the spirit and real worlds simultaneously.
 

DocMoriartty said:
None of this suggests that Sauron could track or automatically sense Glorfindel or any other elven lord.

No, but if the fellowship included such a type, the word would get to Sauron through ordinary means quickly enough to prove troublesome - just look at the reaction of the Orcs when Sam takes the Ring! They think he's some kind of major elf-lord, and the rumor would have spread fast if they hadn't been so busy killing each other.

I think Sauron or any Balrog/Nazgul/Shelob-spawn/Etc would have recognized Glorfindel on sight as being what he was. Sauron was probably keeping track of such people. When they moved around, he watched them, because he viewed them as being his only real threats.
 

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