A serious set of questions to Colonel Hardisson and the Scholars of J.R.R. Tolkien

[Edena_of_Neith]

In the books, Balin, Ori, and Oin led an attempt to retake Khazad-Dum (Moria) from the enemy who held it.
Since King Dain of the Lonely Mountain and Iron Hills knew of Durin's Bane (he did not call it a Balrog, but having seen it, he knew it was a truly monstrous foe) he apparently disapproved, yet Balin got quite a number of volunteers and off they went.

The assault on Moria by Balin and his dwarves was successful.
They swept away the orcs in the eastern upper and central Deeps and chambers.

They would go on to hold Moria for at least 5 years.

From what Gandalf read in the remains of the book (in the chamber of Mazarbul) I am under the impression that the initial counterassault came from OUTSIDE Moria.
The invading orcs came up from Dimril Dale, and eventually the dwarven defenses broke (although the dwarves apparently held the Bridge for a very long time.)

The final stand, in the chamber of Mazarbul, appears to have been made against orcs and perhaps trolls.

I have not read most of the auxillary books on Tolkien's works that might give answers to my questions, but I thought some of you might have, so I wish to put forward the following questions:

Why didn't the balrog initially block Balin's entry into Moria?
Why, during the battles in which Balin retook Moria, did the balrog not get involved?
Why did the balrog not get involved while dwarves had their way in Moria for over 5 years?

Was the counterattack against Balin, indeed, from outside Moria?
Was the balrog involved in the counterattack?
Who WERE the Drummers in the Deep?

And ... I have ALWAYS been curious about this one ... what WAS the thing down in the well, making the tapping noises (the well which Pippin decided to drop a stone down into) ?

 

[The Forsaken One]

to drop a stone down into

A stone, a bucket, a weapon and as icing on the cake the skelleton remains of some late dwarf in a decent piece of metal armor =]



But as for the rest good questions and I don't have the slightest Idea but curious about the drummers as well. Just simple orcs with drums or goblins with drums would be so sad....

btw I'm curious to what a Tolkien goblin looks like...?

 

[Umbran]

btw I'm curious to what a Tolkien goblin looks like...?

Tolkien uses the term "goblin" and "orc" pretty interchangably.

 

[The Forsaken One]

Uruk-Hai are bred from the crossing of Orcs and Goblins..

 

[Melkor Lord Of ALL!]

Because Balrog was in slumber and dwarves did awake him.

 

[Umbran]

Uruk-Hai are bred from the crossing of Orcs and Goblins..

If you've got an attribution in Tolkien text that suggests this, I'd like to see it. From what I gather reading the Trilogy, the exact nature of the Uruk-Hai not certain, but the speculation of the characters is that they are a crossing of orcs and men (and are thus likely to be one of the original inspirations for the D&D half-orc).

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Why didn't the balrog initially block Balin's entry into Moria?
Why, during the battles in which Balin retook Moria, did the balrog not get involved?
Why did the balrog not get involved while dwarves had their way in Moria for over 5 years?

Was the counterattack against Balin, indeed, from outside Moria?
Was the balrog involved in the counterattack?
Who WERE the Drummers in the Deep?

I think that the Balrog and Orcs, while both servants of Evil, were not acting in concert. The Balrog lived in the deepest parts of the mines, where Balin's dwarves never looked. Thus, he probably wasn't aware of the dwarves existence until such time that the orcs invaded and made such a ruckus he couldn't ignore it.

I'm guessing the Balrog only intervened in the Fellowship's passage because of the presence of the Ring and perhaps of Gandalf, a Maia like itself.

As for the counterattack, I 'm not sure. I had always thought that it came from the deep places of Moria, but I'll have to reread the passage to say for sure. I doubt the Balrog was involved directly in the counterattack, though the counterattack may have woken it up to the point that it investigated and finished the fight for them. In both the book and the film, the orcs seem just as frightened by the Balrog as the Fellowship is, and flee from its approach. I'd say the orcs and Balrog working together is coincidence, not planned.

I assume the Drummers in the Deep are orcs. I can recall no reason to think otherwise.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I have to confess that I can't answer these questions in detail.

I have some thoughts, though.

Where the counterassault came from: what Balin says about the battle in the dale seems to indicate that the dwarves were the ones assaulting from outside Moria. They drove the orcs from the great gate and the guard room, and it seems they pursued the fleeing orcs as they tried to escape outside. The later assault that eventually wiped out the dwarves was, indeed, from outside Moria.

The Balrog probably did, ideed, slumber somewhere deep in Moria. It seems that it is likely that the dwarves eventually pushed their luck too far when they discovered mithril and expanded further into Moria. Remember, Moria was enormous. Think of it as something like this: the Dwarves took over a far eastern suburb of Los Angeles. The Balrog lived in central or western L.A. The dwarves probably weren't even noticed by the Balrog until they went into the western suburbs.

I mean, think about it - the dwarves were a relatively small group. I doubt the Balrog would even care very much about them if he had known about them when they first invaded.

Regarding the drummers - I always assumed they were orcs attending the Balrog somewhere in a level below where the Fellowship was.

But, who knows? Here is an enigmatic bit that Gandalf said about his fight with the Balrog in the deeps of Moria:

from The Two Towers, Book III, Chapter V: The White Rider'Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day.

 

[Umbran]

Having re-read the Moria-crossing, There are a few things we might speculate...

Why doesn't teh balrog block Balin's entry, or act to expel the dwarves retaking Moria? Pretty simple, really - it doesn't care. The dwarves are no threat to the Balrog, and have nothing it wants. When the dwarves first built Moria, the balrog didn't act until the dwarves delved down to bother it. There's little reason to think it'd act differently with a smaller group of less skilled dwarves.

The Balrog is not mentioned explicity in the records Gandalf reads while the fellowship is in Moria. It is then possible that the Balrog had no part in defeating Balin's attempt to recolonize. It only comes up when it senses the Ring and/or Gandalf's presence.

As for the rest, much can be explained by the fact that dwarves are a bit boastful.

Note the records Gandalf reads - first the crown Balin lord of Moria, and only then do they send Oin out to find the upper armories and the Hollin Gate. They crowned Balin before they had actually fully secured Moria! There's no reason to think they ever really fully secured it, especially the deeper areas. More likely, the dwarves found key points they could hold strongly, securing part of Moria near the Mirrormere.

Then, when the end comes for the dwarves, the first thrust of it comes from the Dimrill Dale. That doesn't mean the entire attack comes from there, or even that the orcs are actually from outside Moira. Imagine instead that the orcs have a little bit of cunning. They know they cannot take the defensive positions Balin's set up within the upper regions of Moria, so they try something else....

They find olut that Balin's got a habit of gazing into the Mirrormere, so they ambush him there alone (stuipd dwarf, going out alone in those mountains). The Dimrill Gate is not fully secured closed, because they know they'll be letting Balin back inside in a few minutes. This gives the orcs a foothold. Now the dwarves have a problem - they need to hold off these orcs coming in, but to do so they have to weaken other defensive positions within Moria, allowing an assault from the deeps to succeed. The dwarves are then trapped. They cannot go down or out the Dimrill gate, because those places are held by orcs. They cannot go out the Hollin gate, because of the thing in the water there that ate Oin...

 

[Prince Atom]

I think Umbran's got the gist of it. No one knows what really happened, but if I were trying to take Moria back from a foe that held several strong positions I'd try to draw their strength so I could assault those positions with some hope of success.

I think the Balrog probably looked on the Dwarfs and Orcs as ants. It didn't pay any attention to their travails until it decided to relieve its boredom and smash some Dwarfs into goo.

Then when Frodo & Co. cross Moria, the Balrog eventually becomes aware of them. It might not even have been attracted by the drums. It's had several years to bury itself deep under Caradhras, so perhaps reaching the uppermost levels takes it a while -- even if it starts when it first senses the Ring and/or Gandalf. So then it arrives and stomps past the Orcs and blows Gandalf down the stairs.... Is Gandalf really weaker or has he limited himself in his mortal frame?

I, for one, would not like to see Moria explored fully. That would take away some of its feel.

BTW... Is Caradhras in the Misty Mountains? If so, then it's possible that the caverns of the goblins in The Hobbit are a remote part of Moria, and that Gollum and Bilbo and everything have come full circle... Neat.

TWK