A serious set of questions to Colonel Hardisson and the Scholars of J.R.R. Tolkien
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
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Femerus the Gnecro
First Post
The Forsaken One said:
This is only from the movie, and thus, not even close to being 'canon.' From the books, the terms 'goblin' and 'orc' are used interchangeably and refer to the same race, i.e. the corrupted race of elves that eventually became known to most semi-affluent Tolkien afficionados as 'orcs.'
As for Uruk-Hai... they are indeed the result of cross-breeding standard orcs with humans... thus, half orcs. Though, the concept of 'half' anything in Tolkien isn't anywhere as neat & tidy as in DnD... but that's another discussion.
-Femerus
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Actually, I think the replies above are right on the money.
I am guessing the balrog was asleep down in the deeps, and Balin's (foolish) expedition failed to arouse it.
Balin wasn't so foolish he sent dwarves down into the really deep places, as he reclaimed Moria, or there would have been no book for Gandalf to read from.
And I can well believe some of the orcs of Moria (there weren't many, due to the Battle of Five Armies) survived the dwarven onslaught, and fled into the deeps, and waited.
I am guessing that Dul Guldur was the staging around for the counterattack.
Going around Lothlorien and crossing Anduin, the orc host came up the Silverlode into Dimril Dale, where their scouts caught Balin alone and slew him.
The main host arrived, only to find the way blocked by the East Gates of Moria, which the dwarves had barred.
However, there were far more orcs, apparently, than there were dwarves, and the siege was on.
The dwarves apparently sent Oin to see if an avenue of retreat was possible through West Gate, and the survivors of that expedition came back to inform the dwarves that no such avenue existed, and that Oin had been killed.
Meanwhile, the orcs beat their way through attrition through the Gates.
Once more, they were halted - at the Bridge of Khazad-Dum.
Once more, the sheer numbers of orcs wore down the defenders (I assume the orcs paid greatly for the Bridge), and once more the dwarves fell back.
In a bloodbath of a battle, the orcs took the Second Hall, and the dwarves moved their command center to the Chamber of Mazarbul, where they were now effectively trapped.
Thence, the orcs assembled for one great, final assault on the dwarves, even as Ori penned the fateful words in his book: we cannot get out.
- - -
It is a pity the elves of Lothlorien were estranged from the dwarves.
An assault by the elves of Lothlorien, at the crossings of Anduin, could have stopped the orc host dead in it's tracks.
However, short of Galadriel herself going into Khazad-Dum (and maybe not even then) there is no way Balin could have hoped to win against what he called Durin's Bane.
And he knew Durin's Bane was in there, somewhere. King Dain would have told him so.
What were Balin, Ori, and Oin thinking of??
Lord of Moria? A bit pretentious, don't you think?
A proclamation made while the balrog was still the true Lord of Moria (as Colonel Hardisson might have put it, a person does not proclaim himself mayor of Los Angeles when one is only mayor of Palm Springs far east of L.A.)
- - -
By the way, somewhere it was mentioned that we might see more of the battle between Gandalf and the balrog in the film The Two Towers.
I hope so.
That would be great (even if it would be very sad, for remember - although the balrog dies, it mortally wounds Gandalf too. In other words, the balrog kills Gandalf.)
I am guessing the balrog was asleep down in the deeps, and Balin's (foolish) expedition failed to arouse it.
Balin wasn't so foolish he sent dwarves down into the really deep places, as he reclaimed Moria, or there would have been no book for Gandalf to read from.
And I can well believe some of the orcs of Moria (there weren't many, due to the Battle of Five Armies) survived the dwarven onslaught, and fled into the deeps, and waited.
I am guessing that Dul Guldur was the staging around for the counterattack.
Going around Lothlorien and crossing Anduin, the orc host came up the Silverlode into Dimril Dale, where their scouts caught Balin alone and slew him.
The main host arrived, only to find the way blocked by the East Gates of Moria, which the dwarves had barred.
However, there were far more orcs, apparently, than there were dwarves, and the siege was on.
The dwarves apparently sent Oin to see if an avenue of retreat was possible through West Gate, and the survivors of that expedition came back to inform the dwarves that no such avenue existed, and that Oin had been killed.
Meanwhile, the orcs beat their way through attrition through the Gates.
Once more, they were halted - at the Bridge of Khazad-Dum.
Once more, the sheer numbers of orcs wore down the defenders (I assume the orcs paid greatly for the Bridge), and once more the dwarves fell back.
In a bloodbath of a battle, the orcs took the Second Hall, and the dwarves moved their command center to the Chamber of Mazarbul, where they were now effectively trapped.
Thence, the orcs assembled for one great, final assault on the dwarves, even as Ori penned the fateful words in his book: we cannot get out.
- - -
It is a pity the elves of Lothlorien were estranged from the dwarves.
An assault by the elves of Lothlorien, at the crossings of Anduin, could have stopped the orc host dead in it's tracks.
However, short of Galadriel herself going into Khazad-Dum (and maybe not even then) there is no way Balin could have hoped to win against what he called Durin's Bane.
And he knew Durin's Bane was in there, somewhere. King Dain would have told him so.
What were Balin, Ori, and Oin thinking of??
Lord of Moria? A bit pretentious, don't you think?
A proclamation made while the balrog was still the true Lord of Moria (as Colonel Hardisson might have put it, a person does not proclaim himself mayor of Los Angeles when one is only mayor of Palm Springs far east of L.A.)
- - -
By the way, somewhere it was mentioned that we might see more of the battle between Gandalf and the balrog in the film The Two Towers.
I hope so.
That would be great (even if it would be very sad, for remember - although the balrog dies, it mortally wounds Gandalf too. In other words, the balrog kills Gandalf.)
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
By the way ... how did Gollum get out of Moria?
He didn't cross the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, did he, prior to the Fellowship?
He most certainly did not cross the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, AFTER the Fellowship!
There was no other way out, as far as I know, except to climb up those light shafts (I wonder if even Gollum could have done that ...dwarven stonework is very smooth), then climb straight down the east side of the Misty Mountains.
- - -
I realize that it was probably an orc scout who was down below the well that Pippin dropped the stone into.
However, I like to think it was something else - something where you hear a snarling and thundering rumble, you shine the torch around, you get a brief glimpse of giant fangs, vile secretions, and something big and horrific, and then there is blackness (for you are suddenly and very dead.)
You know, like in the film Alien?
THAT kind of critter, would have taught Pippin that this was no hobbit walking party!
He didn't cross the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, did he, prior to the Fellowship?
He most certainly did not cross the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, AFTER the Fellowship!
There was no other way out, as far as I know, except to climb up those light shafts (I wonder if even Gollum could have done that ...dwarven stonework is very smooth), then climb straight down the east side of the Misty Mountains.
- - -
I realize that it was probably an orc scout who was down below the well that Pippin dropped the stone into.
However, I like to think it was something else - something where you hear a snarling and thundering rumble, you shine the torch around, you get a brief glimpse of giant fangs, vile secretions, and something big and horrific, and then there is blackness (for you are suddenly and very dead.)
You know, like in the film Alien?
THAT kind of critter, would have taught Pippin that this was no hobbit walking party!
Last edited:
Kid Charlemagne
I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
Edena_of_Neith said:
Actually, I'd bet that he did.
Remember that Aragorn insists on getting moving immediately after getting out, since the hills would be crawling with orcs by nightfall?
The Orcs would no doubt make a makeshift bridge of wood or ropes to allow them to cross the chasm, and would be delayed only a little while by the Bridge's absence. Gollum may not have made it out of Moria for quite some time, since he didn't pick up the Fellowship's trail until after they left Lothlorien quite some time later...
Gallowglass
First Post
Re the Balrog
"We had long known that under Cradhrasa terror dwelt, but had I know the Dwarves had stirred this up I would have denied this dwarf entry" or some such: doesn't Celeborn imply that the wise know in general that something very nasty is lurking in Moria, but not exactly what?
As for Uruk-hai, the implication is that they are hybrid men and Orcs/Goblins: the later being geenrally intechangeable terms although in places Tolkein talks of "great Black Uruk's of the Mountains", tending to encourage the usage of "goblin" for the smaller breeds and Hob-Goblin, Orc and Uruk for teh larger "pure" breeds. The Uruk-hai range from very goblin-like to almost human, like Bill Ferny's "friend" in Bree IIRC. The characters (well, Legolas, Gimli, Merry and Pippin) discuss this after Helms Deep.
"We had long known that under Cradhrasa terror dwelt, but had I know the Dwarves had stirred this up I would have denied this dwarf entry" or some such: doesn't Celeborn imply that the wise know in general that something very nasty is lurking in Moria, but not exactly what?
As for Uruk-hai, the implication is that they are hybrid men and Orcs/Goblins: the later being geenrally intechangeable terms although in places Tolkein talks of "great Black Uruk's of the Mountains", tending to encourage the usage of "goblin" for the smaller breeds and Hob-Goblin, Orc and Uruk for teh larger "pure" breeds. The Uruk-hai range from very goblin-like to almost human, like Bill Ferny's "friend" in Bree IIRC. The characters (well, Legolas, Gimli, Merry and Pippin) discuss this after Helms Deep.
Kid Charlemagne
I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
Re: Re the Balrog
It's well-known to the wise that something wiped out Moria, hence the frequent references to Durin's Bane. They just didn't know what it was. A Balrog is about as bad as it gets - a being on a par with Gandalf, and even Sauron himself. Even a dragon would be less of a threat.
Gallowglass said:
It's well-known to the wise that something wiped out Moria, hence the frequent references to Durin's Bane. They just didn't know what it was. A Balrog is about as bad as it gets - a being on a par with Gandalf, and even Sauron himself. Even a dragon would be less of a threat.
Re: Re: Re the Balrog
Umm--no. Dragons outrank Balrog's on the great threat scale--in Morgoth's army, they were the real heavy hitters. Balrog's were a very close second though...
After all, not even Gandalf could have stood up to Smaug in a one-on-one fight. Bard killed him because Bilbo managed to send him inside info via thrush, and he was a damn good shot with a magic arrow...
Kid Charlemagne said:
Umm--no. Dragons outrank Balrog's on the great threat scale--in Morgoth's army, they were the real heavy hitters. Balrog's were a very close second though...
After all, not even Gandalf could have stood up to Smaug in a one-on-one fight. Bard killed him because Bilbo managed to send him inside info via thrush, and he was a damn good shot with a magic arrow...
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