D&D General A shorter Appendix N

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The first time I read Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, I was shocked at how much it's pure D&D, to the point that I get really uncomfortable when anyone tries to say D&D is "clearly" inspired by some other author. (Which isn't what anyone is doing here.)

I can't recommend the latter Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books, which get weird and gross the way the last few Heinlein books do (something about fantasy and sci-fi authors of a certain generation deciding to write material for their own sexual gratification, including stuff that's illegal or at the very least very gross). But the first several books are astonishing and are as close to an approximation of OD&D through pre-Dragonlance 1E as it's possible to imagine. When the books start to get boring, stop, because on the far side of that, they just get unpleasant.

The first several books are really, really good, though.

 

[Blue Orange]

Heinlein was born in 1907 and Leiber in 1910, but I think what you're seeing is the zeitgeist of the early 60s, after the sexual revolution but before second-wave feminism.

If you want a more diverse Appendix N, 5e has Appendix E, which lists the originals plus adds on a newer batch.

The thing is that after 1980 or so D&D begins to be its own major literary influence on the fantasy field, producing a kind of feedback loop.

I think it's kind of too bad they went 3 editions without listing their sources.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The first time I read Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, I was shocked at how much it's pure D&D, to the point that I get really uncomfortable when anyone tries to say D&D is "clearly" inspired by some other author. (Which isn't what anyone is doing here.)... But the first several books are astonishing and are as close to an approximation of OD&D through pre-Dragonlance 1E as it's possible to imagine.

The first story, Jewels in the Forest, first published in Unknown #8 (1939) as Two Sought Adventure, feels very D&D-y to me. There's a treasure map with a riddle, a weird building (with a precisely described layout), treasure, grave danger, and competition from another 'adventuring party'.

A great treasure house with a high tower, fit for a king’s dwelling—yet no king may dwell there. Immediately below the keystone of the chief dome my treasure lies hid, eternal as the glittering stars. It will outlast me and my name, I, Urgaan of Angarngi. It is my hold on the future. Let fools seek it. They shall win it not. For although my treasure house be empty as air, yet have I left a guardian there. Let the wise read this riddle and forbear.​

And Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser act a lot like D&D adventurers:

This time their preparations were well thought out. The Mouser carried a mallet and a stout steel pry-bar, in case they had to attack masonry, and made certain that candles, flinty wedges, chisels, and several other small tools were in his pouch. Fafhrd borrowed a pick from the peasant’s implements and tucked a coil of thin, strong rope in his belt. He also took his bow and quiver of arrows.​

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Heinlein was born in 1907 and Leiber in 1910, but I think what you're seeing is the zeitgeist of the early 60s, after the sexual revolution but before second-wave feminism.

No, I'm not talking about Stranger in a Strange Land. I'm talking about Number of the Beast, To Sail Beyond the Sunset, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls and, to a lesser extent, Friday, which is still salvageable as a novel.

Heinlein's last books in the 1970s and 1980s were largely about his surrogates -- extremely thinly veiled -- having lots of polyamorous relationships (no judgement here, so long as it's all consensual and adults), with a heavy emphasis on the sex with women young enough to be his granddaughters or great-granddaughters, and some suggestions that maybe incest isn't a big deal if birth control is involved.

It's definitely a point of view.

Lieber's final books feature bondage (fine between adults, but a new flavor getting mixed in), rape and sex with explicitly underage women. The last two books in particular have almost no conventional fantasy action in them at all, other than some vague mumbling at Norse mythology in Newhon's version of Iceland, but a lot of focus on keeping young women in locked chests and how many barely pubescent women Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser could have sex with. And unlike his earlier books, where the women were often the equals of the two protagonists and had lots of agency, in the last books, their successors were there as objects to have sex with and that's about it.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The first story, Jewels in the Forest, first published in Unknown #8 (1939) as Two Sought Adventure, feels very D&D-y to me. There's a treasure map with a riddle, a weird building (with a precisely described layout), treasure, grave danger, and competition from another 'adventuring party'.

A great treasure house with a high tower, fit for a king’s dwelling—yet no king may dwell there. Immediately below the keystone of the chief dome my treasure lies hid, eternal as the glittering stars. It will outlast me and my name, I, Urgaan of Angarngi. It is my hold on the future. Let fools seek it. They shall win it not. For although my treasure house be empty as air, yet have I left a guardian there. Let the wise read this riddle and forbear.​

And Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser act a lot like D&D adventurers:

This time their preparations were well thought out. The Mouser carried a mallet and a stout steel pry-bar, in case they had to attack masonry, and made certain that candles, flinty wedges, chisels, and several other small tools were in his pouch. Fafhrd borrowed a pick from the peasant’s implements and tucked a coil of thin, strong rope in his belt. He also took his bow and quiver of arrows.​

Lankhmar, especially as described in the first two or three books, is also the obvious blueprint for nearly every D&D metropolis and many fantasy novel cities. The City of Greyhawk doesn't even manage to get all the serial numbers filed off. But it's also Waterdeep and especially Baldur's Gate. It's Sharn. It's the City State of the Invincible Overlord, which again, doesn't even bother filing all the serial numbers off. It's Ptolus. It's Ankh-Morpork.

While I don't love Lieber's rape fantasies in the latter books (to put it mildly), I am genuinely offended on his behalf for how overlooked his contributions are to fantasy and especially RPGs. If he'd never existed, D&D, and through it, fantasy fiction in general would look very different.

 

[Oofta]

Another suggestion would be to link to a website that people could submit suggestions for podcasts and streams while allowing people to vote for their favorites. There are a ton of blogs and podcasts out there, many of which offer good advice but it's an ever-changing list.

 

[Blue Orange]

No, I'm not talking about Stranger in a Strange Land. I'm talking about Number of the Beast, To Sail Beyond the Sunset, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls and, to a lesser extent, Friday, which is still salvageable as a novel.

Heinlein's last books in the 1970s and 1980s were largely about his surrogates -- extremely thinly veiled -- having lots of polyamorous relationships (no judgement here, so long as it's all consensual and adults), with a heavy emphasis on the sex with women young enough to be his granddaughters or great-granddaughters, and some suggestions that maybe incest isn't a big deal if birth control is involved.

It's definitely a point of view.

Lieber's final books feature bondage (fine between adults, but a new flavor getting mixed in), rape and sex with explicitly underage women. The last two books in particular have almost no conventional fantasy action in them at all, other than some vague mumbling at Norse mythology in Newhon's version of Iceland, but a lot of focus on keeping young women in locked chests and how many barely pubescent women Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser could have sex with. And unlike his earlier books, where the women were often the equals of the two protagonists and had lots of agency, in the last books, their successors were there as objects to have sex with and that's about it.

Ah, OK. The Heinleins date to the 1980s, and Leiber's last F&M works to the 1970s. So probably a response to second-wave, or just simple wish-fulfillment on the author's part.

I read part of Number of the Beast and a few of the later F&M stories, and vaguely remember all the sex. I just assumed it was wish-fulfillment, now that the author was on his way down and had nothing to lose.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Agreed. The early Fafhrd and Grey Mouster books are so darn good. The later stuff (especially but not exclusively looking at you, Knight and Knave of Swords) starts to go downhill into some creepy territory, that's for sure. After his wife's death in 1969, he descended into alcoholism for years, and I think the two affected the quality of his writing.

But when Leiber was on, he was razor-sharp. As you mention later on, Lankhmar is the Ur fantasy city, casting shadows you can find across so many fantasy worlds.

The first time I read Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, I was shocked at how much it's pure D&D, to the point that I get really uncomfortable when anyone tries to say D&D is "clearly" inspired by some other author. (Which isn't what anyone is doing here.)

I can't recommend the latter Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books, which get weird and gross the way the last few Heinlein books do (something about fantasy and sci-fi authors of a certain generation deciding to write material for their own sexual gratification, including stuff that's illegal or at the very least very gross). But the first several books are astonishing and are as close to an approximation of OD&D through pre-Dragonlance 1E as it's possible to imagine. When the books start to get boring, stop, because on the far side of that, they just get unpleasant.

The first several books are really, really good, though.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Agreed. The early Fafhrd and Grey Mouster books are so darn good. The later stuff (especially but not exclusively looking at you, Knight and Knave of Swords) starts to go downhill into some creepy territory, that's for sure. After his wife's death in 1969, he descended into alcoholism for years, and I think the two affected the quality of his writing.

But when Leiber was on, he was razor-sharp. As you mention later on, Lankhmar is the Ur fantasy city, casting shadows you can find across so many fantasy worlds.

You know, I didn't think to look at what was going on in his life, but alcoholism and the loss of his wife definitely seem like they could explain his spiral. For all the weird stuff in the last two books, they're also about trying to give Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser a stable happily ever after where death is not a threat to them and those they love.

 

[Cadence]

Vance, Jack: The Dying Earth; The Eyes of the Overworld

I've read the four originals in the Tales of the Dying Earth collection and the short stories in the tribute anthology Songs of the Dying Earth once or twice. I'm now rereading the originals and am in The Eyes of the Overworld.

Of course Cugel's Saga and Rhialto the Marvelous are too late (except for Morreion) to be in Appendix N. But the Sandestin in Rhialto are bothering me. (In spite of them being integral to my favorite of the short stories in the anthology).

I guess I could wait until I get to that volume again, but is it just a totally different magic system from the first three volumes? If Rhialto had come out a decade earlier, do you think we would have had summoners in D&D?