A simplified D&D? Aren't you all forgetting something...

[Mouseferatu]

but you can't just ignore all the D20 System stuff from 3rd parties, most of which is still, 4 years later, aimed at D&D players.

Actually you can. In fact, while I hope people don't--given that I'm a D20 writer--the majority of the market does. That's one of the main reasons WotC's sales are so astronomically higher than everyone else's.

The plethora of D20 products are absolutely not a problem with D&D 3E itself, anymore than the old Judges Guild products could be said to accurately reflect on 1E. They're a factor to take into account when deciding how to play/run a game, but they cannot by any reasonable standard be said to be representative of any flaws of 3E itself. Anyone who wants to solve the problem of D20 supplement creep is well within their rights to say "My game uses WotC stuff only." Heck, in the rules as written, that's still pretty much the default, since WotC doesn't tend to reference or refer to third-party material.

If you're comparing D&D to D&D, 3E is still well behind 2E in terms of total supplements. And this doesn't mean I think 3E is a flawless system. There are certain aspects of BD&D, 1E and 2E that I prefer. That said, I happen to believe that 3E is overall a better game than any of those, and it would be (I think) easier to modify D20/3E to my perfect game than it would be any of the preceeding editions.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

No he isn't. I've said it multiple times in threads of this sort, going back at least a year or 3. ;-)

Sorry, forgot to write "I've ever heard about"

 

[woodelf]

- I used all the time the circumstance +2/-2 DM's trick to quickly adjudicate situations which I didn't remember, without having to look up the DMG for the official rule

and that, right there, is the biggest simplification that can be made, without any significant change to the actual rules: always use that. Even for things that there are other modifiers built in to the official rules--just ignore them.

 

[Razz0putin]

Congratulations on having a good time in old school tomb of horrors. Now with that said yes I hear that it is possible to start a fire with two sticks however I think I'll stick to my lighter and matches. Now with that said AoO are a big pain in the <insert favorite naugty bit here>.

to those who feel my post is rather schitzophrenic I believe it was Wordsworth who said "I am large and contain volumes".

 

[woodelf]

Throughout the history of D&D people have argued that class X is too weak, or class Y is too strong. But it's always different classes, despite some people's insistence that 'everyone knows...'.

Actually, in the case of druids, in addition to my own experiences, i'm quoting someone else, who did a detailed numerical analysis. Way back, in the #90s of Dragon, someone did a very cool comparison of druids to other classes, looking at how many hps they had at a given XP total, what level they were, what spells they could cast and how many, how much damage their spells could do, how versatile their spell list was, and so on. With the relatively inflexible classes of AD&D1, it's pretty easy to do, and pretty meaningfully. And the druid kicks everybody else's butt in any sort of objective measure. Well, specifically, all the other spellcasters. And it's been my experience that, prior to D&D3E, the magic-user was king at high levels, and the divine spellcasters were king at low levels. Now, depending how a character was played and what magic items they have, you might not have actually seen this. But i think it is perfectly reasonable to claim that, at least prior to Unearthed Arcana, druids were the most over-balanced of the classes (well, save perhaps bards, but considering what it took to become one, i never saw a legitimate bard).

 

[woodelf]

The only problem though is that no one really plays those games. The best game in the world means nothing if you can't find someone to join the experience. At least with AD&D 2e Johnnie has a chance of finding people to play.

You know, i hear this all the time. I gotta wonder why my experiences are so different--i've never had a problem finding people to play any RPG that was in a genre they enjoyed. Yes, occaissionally a particular player would be system-partisan, but not very often, and never enough to stop me putting a group together. And there's always beginners: instead of posting at the game store, invite your friends or coworkers. If you tell a non-gamer that you'd like to run X, and it's about such-n-such, and it'll be fun, they're not gonna say "but it's not popular" or "it's not in print" or "it's not D20 System". This applies, to a lesser extent, to existing gamers, but is one of the reasons i "roll my own" when it comes to creating RPG groups--i don't have to deal with all the brainwashing and preconceptions from the general gaming populace (like "learning a new system is hard"). Yes, finding an existing SkyRealms of Jorune group may be tricky. But i just haven't found that it's that hard to put together a SkyRealms of Jorune group. Have any of you who can't find such a group actually tried telling your D&D group "ok, i need a break from D&D. I'm going to be running Blue Planet for the next 4 weeks, and then we'll get back to the D&D" and had your players actually not show? Actually choose to not RP over trying a new system? I suspect part of it is bluffing and peer pressure: they say they won't play it, hoping you'll back down. Not saying you should make unilateral decisions, or completely ignore the others' interests, but surely the GM should have some say in the matter, too? Shouldn't the whole group want everybody in the group to be happy? And is it really such a horrible price to pay to play a good game that you don't like with good friends for a few weeks, before returning to a game you do like? I play all sorts of non-RPGs with friends, despite having no real interest in the games, because that's what they all want to do, and i want to hang with my friends.

 

[d4]

Have any of you who can't find such a group actually tried telling your D&D group "ok, i need a break from D&D. I'm going to be running Blue Planet for the next 4 weeks, and then we'll get back to the D&D" and had your players actually not show? Actually choose to not RP over trying a new system?

yes, several times.

i wanted to GM In Nomine, but they all wanted to play AD&D2. only one player out of a group of seven showed up for those sessions. when i gave up and another GM in the group started up a new AD&D game, they all came back. :\

more recently, i've tried a couple of times to run a Star Wars d20 game for a D&D3e group. only about half of the group would show up to my games, but they'd all show up when D&D was on the agenda. :\

and i don't blame them. if a GM wants to run a game that i don't enjoy, i have no problem telling him i'm "sitting out this one," and "i'll see y'all when the next campaign begins." i like hanging out with my friends, sure, but not if i'm not going to enjoy the experience. i can hang out with them under different circumstances, anyways.

 

[Maliki]

All of this debate is great it continues to build my desire for C&C by pointing out the good and bad of all current and previous editions of D&D. They all have had things I liked and other things I hated, from what I've read in various post C&C takes many of the things I liked from all versions and rolled them into one. Will I like everything in it? Probably not, but I hope to find more I like and less I dislike than in the current system.

 

[Hunter Simon]

Congratulations on having a good time in old school tomb of horrors. Now with that said yes I hear that it is possible to start a fire with two sticks however I think I'll stick to my lighter and matches. Now with that said AoO are a big pain in the <insert favorite naugty bit here>.

to those who feel my post is rather schitzophrenic I believe it was Wordsworth who said "I am large and contain volumes".

???????

I think some of this message must have been cut off or something...

 

[Hunter Simon]

Have any of you who can't find such a group actually tried telling your D&D group "ok, i need a break from D&D. I'm going to be running Blue Planet for the next 4 weeks, and then we'll get back to the D&D" and had your players actually not show? Actually choose to not RP over trying a new system?

Yup. It actually happens all the time. Just in my group alone, our DM wanted to run AD&D 2e (as a break from 3.5) and everyone said, "I'm not into that...I hate 2e...I won't be there." So the DM gave up. Then later in the year he wanted to run Shadowrun (again, as a break from 3.5) and three guys said, "Call me when Shadowrun is over" and left.

I stayed, but I wish I hadn't. Shadowrun blows.