A solution for multiclass spellcasters? (without PrCs)

[The Cardinal]

last night I had this idea on how to settle the problems with multiclassing spellcasters - it requires some ultra-simple math, but it may be worth it...

Multiclass Spellcasting:

To calculate the effective spellcaster level for any given class (i.e. spellslots per day etc.) for a character with more than one spellcasting class do the following:

Same type (arcane+arcane, divine+divine): add all spellcasting levels of the same type together, then subtract 3 levels for the first additional class with this type of spellcasting, and 1 for the second – divide that amount by the total number of *all* spellcaster classes and add the result to the spellcaster levels (clr7/dr3/pal2 casts like clr7+(7+3+2-3-1)/3=clr9 and dru3+2=dru5 and pal2+2=4, a clr2/drd4 casts like a clr2+(2+4-3)/2=clr3 and drd4+1=drd5, a wiz5/sorc5 casts like a wiz5+(5+5-3)/2=wiz8 and sorc8)

Different type (arcane, divine): (*after* calculating effects for identical spellcasting type) add +1 to arcane spellcaster levels per 3 full levels in divine spellcaster *classes* (not effective caster levels), and vice versa. (so a wiz4/clr3 casts like a wiz5 and a clr4, a sorc9/dru7 casts like a sorc11 and a dru10)

mixed examples:

Clr4/Wiz5/Sorc7/Drd4 = Wiz (5+(5+7-3)/4)+2= wiz9
Sorc (7+(5+7-3)/4)+2= sor11
Clr (4+(4+4-3)/4)+4= clr9
Drd (4+(4+4-3)/4)+4= drd9

Wiz6/Sorc6/Brd5/Clr3 = Wiz (6+(6+6+5-3-1)/4)+1= wiz10
Sorc (6+(6+6+5-3-1)/4)+1= sor10
Brd (5+(6+6+5-3-1)/4)+1 = brd9
Clr 3+5= clr8

Sorc14/Wiz3/Clr3 = Wiz (3+(3+14-3)/4)+1= wiz 7
Sorc (14+(14+3-3)/4)+1= sorc18
Clr 3+5= clr8

Pal5/Clr6/Brd4 = Pal (5+(5+6-3)/3)+1= pal8
Clr (6+(5+6-3)/3)+1= clr9
Brd 4+3= brd7


Comments?

 

[Mordane76]

Personally, I think these systems are what everyone is looking for -- a means to boost caster power without having to sacrifice levels in other classes. The problem is that spellcasters are powerful, not because of their martial ability, but because of their access to utility; a well-prepared spellcaster can be a ready substitute for almost any member of any other class.


I think your math gives too much. On average, your casters are gaining 4-5 effective caster levels in your examples, just for having levels in differing spellcasting classes. Separate traditions means separate traditions -- each class draws power from differing preparation methods, has bonuses for their own types of magic, and suffers different drawbacks accordingly to their individual magic types. Lumping it all together and making adjustments is a bad idea.


When you look at what you're doing, you have this anomaly.
Clr4/Wiz5/Sorc7/Drd4 = Clr9/Drd9/Wiz9/Sor11.

You have a 20th level character, with the HP of a 20th level character, the special (non-casting) abilities of a 20th level character, the saves of a 20th level character, but the spellcasting abilities of a 38th level character. WHY? What has he done that I should allow him 18 effective casting levels above other characters? This is a lot of extra firepower, and in many cases, it will grant access to levels of spells and a plethora of new slots in which to use those new spells.

People will argue that BAB, HP, and Saves from differing classes stack together, but BAB, HP, and Saves are NOT spells by any stretch of the imagination. Spells are much more versatile than any of these simple mechanics, and should not stack in any fashion.

 

[Scion]

while I dont agree with a few of Mordane76's points Doing a few calculations myself it seems that it is almost 'more' beneficial to be multiclassed with this system than not. It is possible that I didnt understand fully though. I think that this is very close to what would need to be done though, and I think you did a very good job of getting close

The main one I was looking at was something along the lines of wiz10/sorc10, now if I am thinking correctly you would have a caster of 16/16 right? that isnt too bad I guess..hmm..

I will have to think about it more, but from what I've seen I like it for the most part, just need an easy to read formula.

Any more ideas?

 

[Mordane76]

The main one I was looking at was something along the lines of wiz10/sorc10, now if I am thinking correctly you would have a caster of 16/16 right? that isnt too bad I guess..hmm..

Any more ideas?

Of course it's good to multi-classed under his calculations! You get caster levels for which you've made no real investment. Why should a 20th level character (as the one you've outlined) have the casting abilities of a 32nd level character? Why can't the 10Ftr/10Brb have the special abilities of 16Ftr/16Brb, then? Basically, that's what you're doing here... you've giving spellcasting characters something for nothing.

If you want awesome power, straight-class. If you want versatility and a plethora of lower level spells, multi-class in spellcaster classes -- but don't expect power AND versatility; one has to make a sacrifice somewhere.

 

[Scion]

Why should a 20th level character (as the one you've outlined) have the casting abilities of a 32nd level character? Why can't the 10Ftr/10Brb have the special abilities of 16Ftr/16Brb, then?

ahh, but why does he have to fall so far behind in power? Really, it is a fine line and everyone will do something different about it. I know some groups that dont care what classes and levels you take, even if they horrible mangle the character to uselessness. Personally I feel that something, somewhere and somehow, should be done.

I think that the mystic theurge actually works very well, lets take the theurge as an example then: wiz5/clr5/theurge10 = caster 15 for each, which is very close to what he gave above, and there have been several threads going through the power of the theurge that have said it may even be slightly under par as is. Which puts the cardinal in a very good light for his equation.

As long as we restrict this added benefit to 'only' spellcasting ability I think it is perfectly fine. Your ftr10/brb10 already has a ton of abilties that stack, his 4 attacks per round tend to be better than 90% or more of the spellcasters spells as a straight caster anyway. (of course, if you go ftr8/brb12 then he's such a powerhouse compared to a straight wiz10/clrc10 it isnt even funny ;/ he'll make every save and kill the poor caster in one round of full attacking)

Although, I have to admit that my reasoning is skewed, in my campaign I have eliminated all save or die spells. With that tossed in to the mix perhaps you would agree with me just a little more

 

[The Cardinal]

a simplified (and slightly modified) formula:

In the case of multiclass characters with more than one spellcasting class, add the following number (if positive) to the effective spellcaster level of each single spellcasting class:
(always round down)

C= Sd/4 + (Si-1)/Nc –1

Sd=sum of different type spellcasting class levels
Si=sum of identical type spellcasting class levels
Nc=total number of spellcasting classes


a few examples:

brd4/pal5/cle5/dru5/PrC(divine)1
C(brd) = 4 – 0 – 1 = +3 => brd7
C(pal,cler,dru, prc)= 1 + 3 –1 = +3 => pal8/cle8/dru8/prc4

wiz5/sorc10/brd5
C= 0 + 6 –1 = +5 = W10/sor15/brd10

sorc16/pal4
C(S)= 1-0-1=+0
C(P)= 4-0-1=+3

sorc10/wiz10
C= 0 + 9 –1 = +8 w18/s18

brd4/sorc4/PrCa(arcane)4/wiz4/PrCb(arcane)4
C= 0+ (20-1):5 -1 = +2 for an effective caster level of 6 in each class

 

[Mordane76]

As long as we restrict this added benefit to 'only' spellcasting ability I think it is perfectly fine. Your ftr10/brb10 already has a ton of abilties that stack, his 4 attacks per round tend to be better than 90% or more of the spellcasters spells as a straight caster anyway. (of course, if you go ftr8/brb12 then he's such a powerhouse compared to a straight wiz10/clrc10 it isnt even funny ;/ he'll make every save and kill the poor caster in one round of full attacking)

You know, what's good for the goose should be good for the gander. If you're gonna let one person have stackable levels, why can't other classes qualify for it?

And as for the Mystic Theurge... don't even get me started on that piece of rubbish. I would burn out my right eye before I'd let that fly in my game. I don't understand why everyone is so up about a Clr/Wiz combination...

Compared to a Wiz20, the Clr10/Wiz10 has better HP, better Fort Save, and better BAB, but no access to the most powerful spells. However, he has access to come doozies on the cleric list... many of the good healing spells, some pretty effective damage spells like Flame Strike (unless they changed the level), and other useful spells.

For those comparing the Clr10/Wiz10 to a Clr20, there's no comparison -- though, if you're looking for that kinda power, then just straight class in Cleric, and forego the wizard levels -- they don't really add much to that the Cleric can't simulate already. I'm just not seeing the argument.


Looking at it from the Sor/Clr possibilty, even here it's the same thing, except that the Sor is just getting 5th level spells. I don't see why a character like the Wiz5/Clr5/MT10 should have the caster power of a 30th level character, and I never will -- I can't take Ftr5/Brb5/MF10 (standing for "Mystical Fighter," in this case), and end up with the abilities of a Ftr15/Brb15, and even if such a class existed, I wouldn't allow even its mention within the same room as my game.

 

[The Cardinal]

Compared to a Wiz20, the Clr10/Wiz10 has better HP, better Fort Save, and better BAB, but no access to the most powerful spells.

the problem with such a combination under the existing rules is the simple fact, that at level 20 any spellcaster is expected to have access to level 7-9 spells. A Clr10/Wiz10 has no access to his armor and melee abilities (unless he sacrifices his Wiz levels) and as a pure spellcaster his lack of high-level spells makes him nearly useless! D&D works with certain assumptions about magic, HD, AC, BAB, and items that are available to characters at a certain level - and these assumptions all work with a party of single-class PCs in mind, so a 3.5 multiclassed spellcaster is simply a-thing-that-should-not-be, i.e. screwed...

 

[Scion]

Mordane76, thats all well and good, but since bab stacks, and that is effectively the same thing as spellcasters spells ::shrugs:: I see no real difference except that spell casters take a big hit, but fighter types 'already' allow the stacking of different fighter classes.

You have already tried to dismiss this arguement as not mattering, which to me is the same as saying that as long as no one states the counter example then your opinion holds a lot of water.

Attacks 'are' the fighters equivalent to spells, and a lot more hp is also one of their class features. If this wasnt the case then why not give the magic users full bab progression and better hp? Every level fighters get more bab, which can be used in all sorts of circumstances. Feats make use of it, special combat manuevers, even out of combat on occasion.

Now, if you dont let bab stack across levels then sure, spell caster levels cant help one another. But if you do let bab stack then letting the casters get a couple extra spells isnt a huge deal, it just helps keep everyone on the same playing field.

Cardinal:

C= Sd/4 + (Si-1)/Nc –1

Sd=sum of different type spellcasting class levels
Si=sum of identical type spellcasting class levels
Nc=total number of spellcasting classes

Looking good there

 

[Mordane76]

a simplified (and slightly modified) formula:

<SNIP MATH AND EXAMPLES>

So... basically, the characters above receive (on average, using your examples) about 11 extra caster levels they've not really worked for? And your Wiz/Sor gets 8 EXTRA CASTER LEVELS PER CLASS?! A Wiz/Clr/MT can only get 5 EXTRA for each class...