A Thought on Turn-Based Movement

[Starfox]

Most combat initiative training can be summed up in the Improved Initiative feat.

Also notice that if the guard started 10 ft. away and one of the PCs had a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes, first thing that happens is an AoO - being flat -footed doesn't matter if you have Combat Reflexes.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

3-5, not 2-3. And you are right (but wrong) about air combat, air combat OODA for fighter pilots is around 12 seconds, AIR. 3-5 seconds is the individual ground combatant OODA. Ground combat infantry squad leader was also around 12-15 seconds AIR - ie it takes a lot longer to command & coordinate a squad than to command and coordinate yourself alone - while a tank commander's OODA was more like 30 seconds due to limited sensory input and other issues.

Oops, I guess I need to learn to read. The time dependency on based on sensory and complexity factors is interesting. I would think that a melee combatant would have a shorter loop than even a modern ground combatant. In modern times you have attacks than you can only infer from sound and impact point from an enemy at distance and perhaps in cover, rather than seeing a blade come at you close up.

 

[Starfox]

Finally, if you subdivde time enough, you get Zenon's paradox - Achilles can never catch the Turtle.

 

[Water Bob]

I think, if it gets to a point where it's one guy running and others trying to close and engage him, it's time to break out of combat rounds and make it a chase scene, dictated by skill checks interacting with environmental factors which determine whether and how soon you can close sufficiently to engage him in combat. And once you do close and it reverts back to combat, rule that as a result of the chase all combatants will be unable to use the Run action for the next several rounds.

A good thought...but...

The question is: "If someone starts to run from me, why don't I have at least a chance to chunk my spear at him as he running away."

You answer is, "you've got to chase them."

In the OP, and the example in green earlier in the thread, I'm trying to make it possible, in the easiest way possible, for the person asking that question above to be able to throw his spear and have a chance at hitting.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

double post, move along, nothing to see here

 

[Greenfield]

To be fair, a realistic resolution might give the group a ranged attack before the other guy finishes his move.

What wouldn't be fair would be to allow them to close and attack a person who moves at least as fast as they do, in mph or fps, and who started running first.

Now, in a "realistic" system, how far should he be able to get before they get a step-and-shoot? I'd probably base it on how much he beat their initiative by. For every five points or fraction thereof I'd give him 30 feet. That lets him finish his full quad move run if he beat them by 20 points on a D20 roll, as the extreme case, or get a single move of 30 if he beat them by 5 or less.

I would always give him the single, at a minimum, because he won the initiative and that has to count for something.

Now if he beats them that way (5 or less) so he's just 30 feet away when they react, why can't they Charge and take him down?

Well, if you're trying to de-segment time and movement by increasing the granularity, you have to increase it for everyone the same amount. You can't give him a quarter of his action and then give them a full action in the middle. If they pursue, they're moving at the same speed he is and won't be able to close that gap until something happens to break his stride.

So if they pursue they pursue at the same speed, and they end the round as far from him as they began.

As for chase rules: I haven't seen a good set for D&D.

In one game I was playing a Barbarian (base move 40) being chased by an Ogre (base move 50). Drove the DM nuts, because it was obvious that he was going to outrun me on the numbers alone, but he couldn't work out how to actually bring me down.

I began with a Withdrawal and a full run away, 160 feet. He followed with 160 feet of movement of his own, which is less than a quad/run for him but more than a double/hustle. That meant that he had no Charge, no Dex, and therefore no AoO when my character Ran again next round.

So he ran past me next time, to cut me off, and to theoretically build enough of a lead to snare me after a Double eventually. My character changed direction, again leaving him more than a triple move behind.

We zig-zagged across those fields this way until I manage to reach the rest of my group. He broke off rather than run into a situation where he was outnumbered like that.

But with or without a safe haven to head for, we could have played tag out there all day, or at least until somebody failed a CON check from all that running, and he'd be "it" all day.

No, hot pursuit in D&D is Zeno's Paradox in action.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

I had a similar, less dramatic experience some years ago - guy on a bike took a swing at me on Tooting High Street out of the blue, I blocked it without conscious thought, he and his mate pedalled their bikes away very fast, and I remember just watching them go. I was 'keyed' to block the attack but like you say, that's instinct not OODA. That's why I can see a case for quasi-readied actions out of combat. OTOH, 98% of the population cannot go to killing force by instinct, they have to decide to kill. I think there are enough factors that abiding by the init roll is almost always appropriate; your story sounds more like a 3e Attack of Opportunity or 4e Immediate Action. Mine was just "Is not flatfooted/does not grant combat advantage in first round of combat".

It seems to me that once you're in melee combat everything is "instinct," and PCs by their nature will be able to use killing force reactively. Hence OODA relates well to a surprise round but not normal combat rounds. I still think it makes sense to allow the PC to attack during the enemy move.

I have used disengagement rules in 1E/2E to try to solve this issue too. My rules was that to disengage you can either do a "fighting withdrawal" or flee. For the former, you step back one square and the opponent has the choice of immediately following one square to stay engaged or to let you go. For the latter, you turn and get full movement but the opponent gets a free attack on your back. (I haven't played as much 3E and later so I'm not sure how this is reflected in those rule sets)

 

[Greenfield]

It seems to me that once you're in melee combat everything is "instinct," and PCs by their nature will be able to use killing force reactively. Hence OODA relates well to a surprise round but not normal combat rounds. I still think it makes sense to allow the PC to attack during the enemy move.

I have used disengagement rules in 1E/2E to try to solve this issue too. My rules was that to disengage you can either do a "fighting withdrawal" or flee. For the former, you step back one square and the opponent has the choice of immediately following one square to stay engaged or to let you go. For the latter, you turn and get full movement but the opponent gets a free attack on your back. (I haven't played as much 3E and later so I'm not sure how this is reflected in those rule sets)

As my martial arts instructor explained, "If you have to think about it, you're too slow". Yeah, melee combat is all instinct and trained reaction. If you stop to think, you've stopped.

As for the "Fighting Withdrawal", 3.* handles that through a mechanic called Attack of Opportunity, often abbreviated as AoO. The problem with both AoO and "Fighting Withdrawal" as mechanics is that both presume you were engaged in combat to begin with. Characters don't get an Attack of Opportunity unless their initiative has come up at least once in the fight. It's called being "flat footed". The Fighting Withdrawal only applied if you were actually fighting someone. If they haven't had an action yet in the fight, you might take a swing at them, but they haven't begun to fight you you yet. You can pull out and they don't get that free swing.

That's the situation being discussed here. They guard spotted the group, turned on his heel and ran before they could react. He won Initiative and gets to act before them.

The complaint isn't that he got to move first. The complaint is that he got to complete his move, 120 feet of sprint, before they began to respond. That put him out of range of thrown weapons, and at a real penalty even for longer ranged ones.

In 1st Ed they shifted ranges when you went outdoors. In the real world you can't shoot an arrow 100+ feet in a 10x10 corridor. To go that far the arc of the arrow will hit the ceiling. (There's a reason they call it "archery". There's an arch involved.) They left that out out when they went to 3e.

Segmenting his move might work, but only if you segment theirs to the same degree.

 

[n00bdragon]

Here's a magic solution:
-Don't allow double moves in the game. They are bad for realism AND bad game design. Unless you're a dog not doing something with your hands does not allow you to move twice as fast.
-Get rid of quadruple movement. Dungeons are not a running track. They're slippery, dusty corridors filled with debris and traps and tend to be rather dark. Also the people running around in them are wearing hundreds of pounds of gear. I would say reduce average human speed to 3 squares and allow running to double that to 6.

 

[Sunseeker]

A character cannot ready an action until their initiative count comes up. On round one, the guard won nish, then ran. By the time the first PC can act and ready his action, the guard has already moved.

By the rules, a character cannot ready an action outside of combat.




Ah. Here's the disconnect. See pg. 25 of the 3.5 DMG: "Combat actions should only be performed in combat...." and "Attacks, readied actions, charges, and other actions are meant to simulate combat, however, and are best used within the round structure."

All that says is that actions of all types function best within the round-based structure. It does not say they cannot exist outside of it, and they often do. Futhermore, it says such things can only be PERFORMED in the combat structure. A "readided action" is an action waiting for a trigger, not a performed action. It's like knocking an arrow but holding it until you see movement or the proper trigger happens.

And we are talking about modding the rules anyway, so why quote raw? By raw the guard gets away. By my reading the players have exactly the chance you say they should have.