A Tournament of Cosmic Propotions! (Immortal's Handbook Rules)

My above post wasn't for or against allowing the feats and magic properties to stack, just a possible explanation as to why U_K allowed them to.

Hey Bel,
How does Gathroc look? Other than incredibly weak, as I have yet to boost him, lol.
 

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How does Gathroc look? Other than incredibly weak, as I have yet to boost him,

He has Stone Dragon manoeuvres readied, yet he can't use them while mounted, as you have to be standing on the ground to initiate Stone Dragon manoeuvres, while his charge-based abilities only function while mounted, so he can't use both at once.

Even with the War portfolio, you still don't count as unarmoured, so he would not gain the Swordsage's AC bonus. Strictly you're also limited by max dex bonus as well, but I don't think we're playing with that rule.

He has Weapon Specialisation twice but not Greater Weapon Specialisation, I assume that that's just a typo in the feats list and the actual stats are correct, and Greater Critical twice, I assume the second is Greater Critical Multiplier. I believe that Greater Critical multiplier has been pushed up to a DvA in this thread, and the Divine version up to a Cosmic.

Where's Mythical Weapon Mastery printed?

He doesn't qualify for Unearthly Weapon Focus, only having a listed BAB of +52, when UWF has a +70 prerequisite.

It seems that with his weapon special abilities alone, his sword is too good for his ECL (+20 Enhancement +15 UEB +5 Vorpal +5 Bitterness +3 Speed +2 Unholy +8 Unholy Power = +58, when he should only be able to get +53 (as it seems he's ECL 150, not that that's mentioned anywhere), and while one might overlook a small discrepancy like that, he's also got +51 worth of non-weapon special abilities and it's made of pure orichalcum Even a generous assessment of its value would put it at just shy of 120,000,000 gp, when he can only afford 56,250,000 gp per item).

He's well short of the Str requirements to wield or wear pure orichalcum. With 87 Str the best he can get is 1.5% pure orichalcum, while they're both listed as being made of orichalcum, the armour seems to have the stats of 1.5% orichalcum, while the sword has the stats of pure orichalcum.
 

He has Stone Dragon manoeuvres readied, yet he can't use them while mounted, as you have to be standing on the ground to initiate Stone Dragon manoeuvres, while his charge-based abilities only function while mounted, so he can't use both at once.

Even with the War portfolio, you still don't count as unarmoured, so he would not gain the Swordsage's AC bonus. Strictly you're also limited by max dex bonus as well, but I don't think we're playing with that rule.

He has Weapon Specialisation twice but not Greater Weapon Specialisation, I assume that that's just a typo in the feats list and the actual stats are correct, and Greater Critical twice, I assume the second is Greater Critical Multiplier. I believe that Greater Critical multiplier has been pushed up to a DvA in this thread, and the Divine version up to a Cosmic.

Where's Mythical Weapon Mastery printed?

He doesn't qualify for Unearthly Weapon Focus, only having a listed BAB of +52, when UWF has a +70 prerequisite.

It seems that with his weapon special abilities alone, his sword is too good for his ECL (+20 Enhancement +15 UEB +5 Vorpal +5 Bitterness +3 Speed +2 Unholy +8 Unholy Power = +58, when he should only be able to get +53 (as it seems he's ECL 150, not that that's mentioned anywhere), and while one might overlook a small discrepancy like that, he's also got +51 worth of non-weapon special abilities and it's made of pure orichalcum Even a generous assessment of its value would put it at just shy of 120,000,000 gp, when he can only afford 56,250,000 gp per item).

He's well short of the Str requirements to wield or wear pure orichalcum. With 87 Str the best he can get is 1.5% pure orichalcum, while they're both listed as being made of orichalcum, the armour seems to have the stats of 1.5% orichalcum, while the sword has the stats of pure orichalcum.

Good point on the SD stuff, will make sure I keep that in mind.

Where are you getting the ruling of War Portfolio as not allowing one to be considered unarmored? I always figured it was an extension of Mithral, which if it ever counted as not wearing armor, would allow you a Monk's unarmored AC bonus. Also, others over at Dicefreaks were of the same mind, and I *think* U_K was as well.

Mythical Weapon Mastery I believe was from the PrC Weapon Master, which I need to either track down or remove.

The rest should be handled once I boost him up. I do not plan on keeping him at ECL 150, instead making him far closer to the top tier of 239.

Question for you Buu,
Any suggestions regarding my desire to make a Death Knight equivalent of the Akalich?
 

Is Mythical from Lord_Masker's Weapon Master class? I think I have a copy of that lying around somewhere if you need it.

And, I'll take a look at your guy, and brainstorm some deathknight stuff tomorrow.
 

Is Mythical from Lord_Masker's Weapon Master class? I think I have a copy of that lying around somewhere if you need it.

And, I'll take a look at your guy, and brainstorm some deathknight stuff tomorrow.

Yea, sounds about right. I *might* have it someplace myself, but if you find it first, that would rock.

And thanks for whatever help you can provide.

Edit: Found the PrC. Will post it up later to get an OK.
 
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I made a monster which I may or may not turn into a Paragon and epicify up to the level of this tournament.

EDIT: I was aiming for LA +0, but it might be about +3. I don't think it has too many abilities for 75 racial HD.

Grey Glooms are a sub-race of the Gloom created by a powerful group of chaotic good deities, who wished to have a race of mortal servants capable of challenging lesser gods, and chose the gloom as the base creature on which to work their magic, due to its considerable power and compact form. The creation of a new mortal race felt more acceptable to them, as opposed to the rather Lawful concept of a race of servitor Outsiders directly under the command of the Gods. That this worked out considerably cheaper in the end, not requiring nearly as large an investment in Quintessence as creating Outsiders just made things more attractive.

They granted huge quantities of instinctive knowledge of fighting, stealth and magic and allowed adults of the species to advance much further than normal, and gave them powerful weapons and armour.

However, their plans were met with mixed success. While powerful, the creature they created had been forever warped by their attempts to make the race inherently Chaotic Good. The Lawful Evil nature of the Gloom conflicted with their conditioning, and the results, while technically striving to further the goals of Chaos and Good, produced a disturbing emotional discord, which manifested as a frightening form of magical energy that they found impossible to suppress or transform into anything more acceptable. And, while stealthy, the new creatures' presence was immediately obvious to anyone due to the energies the creature sheds continuously. Locating its exact position is incredibly difficult, but nobody could get near one and not know that it was there somewhere.

The race, dubbed the Grey Gloom, was something of an embarrassment, as its indiscriminate abilities made it unsuitable for fighting alongside other creatures, and made it useless for missions of subtlety, and its sinister atmosphere didn't feel right to many of its creators, who now try to pretend that the whole affair never happened. The Glooms themselves were no less dedicated to pursuing their instinctive goals, despite being disowned by their creators, and have defeated many agents of oppression and tyranny, almost always acting alone.

[SBLOCK]Grey Gloom
Size/Type:
Medium Monstrous Humanoid (2 VSCs)
Hit Dice: 75d8+1,050 (1,387 hp)
Initiative: +35 (+27 Dex, +8 Superior Initiative)
Speed: 40 ft.
Armor Class: 112 (+27 Dex, +36 insight, 34 armour, +5 natural), 73 touch, 112 flat-footed, dodge, mobility
Base Attack/Grapple: +75/+90
Attack: +13 kukri +116 melee (2d4+28/15-20)
Full Attack: +13 kukri +116/+111/+106/+101 melee (2d4+28/15-20/x2) and
+13 bastard sword +116/+111/+106/+101 melee (2d10+28/17-20/x2)
Space/Reach:
5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Fear gaze, sneak attack +19d6, drain colour, smite evil (8/day, +14 attack, +37 damage, +8 on turning checks), turn undead (as 34th level cleric, 17/day), spells
Special Qualities: Blindsight 60 ft., darkvision 90 ft., opportunist, spell-like abilities, SR 60, DR 30/epic, 3/-, Improbable Equipment, Greylight, trapfinding, improved evasion, trap sense +12, improved uncanny dodge, defensive roll, slippery mind, Integrated class features, aura of resolve, aura of good, lay on hands (518 healing), divine health, Camouflage, Earth Glide, Divine Grace
Saves: Fort +69, Ref +80, Will +65 (+4 morale vs Compulsion)
Abilities: Str 40, Dex 64, Con 38, Int 34, Wis 34, Cha 38
Skills: Balance +115, Bluff +102, Climb +95, Escape Artist +113, Hide +148, Intimidate +100, Jump +107, Knowledge(Religion) +90, Move Silently +127, Search +90, Sleight of Hand +115, Spot +90, Survival +90 (+98 following tracks), Tumble +115
Feats: Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Critical (kukri), Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (kukri), Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Uncanny Two-Weapon Fighting, Ability Focus (Fear Gaze, Greylight), Irresistible Gaze, Quick Draw, Great Fortitude, Combat Reflexes, Skill Focus (Hide), Stealthy
Epic Feats: Sneak Attack of Opportunity, Superior Initiative, Heavy Armour Mastery, Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Mastery, Epic Skill Focus(hide), Good Fortitude, Two-Weapon Rend, Spellcasting Harrier, Spectral Strike, Holy Strike, Fast Healing, Dire Charge, Epic Dodge
Environment: Any urban
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 50
Treasure: Nonstandard (just its dagger, sword and armour)
Alignment: Usually chaotic good.
Advancement: 76-225 HD (Medium)
In the hand of any other creature but a gloom, the grey gloom's weapons are only +5 ghost touch weapons. A grey gloom will never threaten to stab you, and in fact cannot speak.
A gloom’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Possesions:
Grey Plate: A Grey Gloom wears a suit of +16 ghost touch battle plate of heavy fortification constructed from 0.003% Orichalcum. It causes the wearer to blend into the background and blurs their outline, granting a +20 competence bonus on Hide checks The helmet lacks eyeholes, and so blinds any creature with eyes that wears it, and imposes a -4 penalty to listen to creatures that wear it, however viewing the faceplate is equivalent to viewing a grey gloom's face for the purposes of its Fear Gaze ability.
+13 0.003% Orichalcum Ghost Touch Kukri
+13 0.003% Orichalcum Ghost Touch Bastard Sword

Fear Gaze (Su)
Viewing the gloom’s face inspires terror. Creatures that meet the gloom’s gaze must succeed at a Will save (DC 65) or suffer the effects of a fear spell as cast by a 75th-level caster. The DC is Charisma-based.

Spells
Caster level 37th, Save DC 22+Spell Level, Spells Per Day: 6/6/6/6
Typical Paladin Spells Prepared:
1st: Divine Favour, Bless Weapon, Resistance, Endure Elements, Create Water, Bless Water
2nd: Bull's Strength, Eagle's Splendour, Owl's Wisdom, Resist Energy x2, Remove Paralysis
3rd: Magic Circle against Evil, Magic Circle against Law, Prayer, Remove Curse, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Cure Moderate Wounds
4th: Neutralise Poison, Restoration, Death Ward, Dispel Evil, Dispel Law, Cure Serious Wounds

Integrated Class Features (Ex)
A grey gloom has the class features (other than Epic bonus feats) of a Rogue and a Paladin of Freedom (Underdark Knight Variant) of half its HD (37, in this case). Its rogue abilities are opportunist, defensive roll, slippery mind and improved evasion. The caster level for its Paladin spells is equal to half its HD, and it automatically receives the benefit of the Silent Spell metamagic feat when casting Paladin spells without any adjustment to the spell's level.

Drain Colour (Su)
A creature that takes damage from a grey gloom's sneak attack ability while illuminated by greylight has its colour permanently drained away. The penalties inflicted to drained creatures by greylight are doubled, the save DC for the apathy effect is increased by +4 and it is always considered illuminated by greylight, and cannot see even non-illuminated objects in colour. A drained creature also becomes more susceptible to fear effects, receiving a -4 penalty on saves against fear. A limited wish spell (or better) reverses this effect. A Grey Gloom recovers 5 hitpoints per hit die of the creature affected every time it successfully drains colour (but cannot drain an already drained creature for more hitpoints).

Camouflage (Ex)
A Grey Gloom is skilled at hiding in the lighting conditions imposed by its Greylight ability. While illuminated in Greylight, or in otherwise grey surroundings, a Grey Gloom receives a +8 Racial bonus on Hide checks, and may attempt to make Hide checks even while being observed (as the Hide in Plain Sight ability).

Improbable Equipment (Ex)
A grey gloom is not hindered by its oversized off-hand weapon or heavy armour, and receives Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Mastery, Uncanny Two-Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting and Heavy Armour Mastery as bonus feats, may treat a Bastard Sword as a light weapon whenever it would be advantageous, and treats Battle Plate as light armour whenever it would be advantageous. In addition, a Grey Gloom may treat a kukri as a bastard sword or vice-versa for the purpose of qualifying for abilities, and may apply any abilities which apply to one to both.

Greylight (Su)
A grey gloom emanates a strange grey radiance from its body, which extends to Close range (210 feet), and seems to turn everything it touches monochrome. Anything illuminated by greylight is affected as though within the area of a silence spell, however any effect which blocks light (including magical darkness) blocks grey light. If any part of a creature (including any attended objects the creature has) is illuminated, that creature is considered illuminated. Unlike a Gloom's Quiescence ability, a Grey Gloom may not lower this ability. Even if all the illumination is blocked (such as when the Grey Gloom is in the area of a Darkness spell) it still gains a +20 bonus to Move Silently checks, as it is always considered to illuminate itself)

In addition to the effects of silence, areas illuminated with greylight are always considered in shadowy illumination, (magical light overrides the illumination changes, but not any other effects of greylight), and the area is filled with a grainy haze which imposes a -2 penalty to spot checks upon all creatures with eyes, and all distance penalties to Spot checks are doubled within this area. A Grey Gloom can see anything illuminated by greylight as if it were within the radius of its Blindsight ability, regardless of the actual distance involved.

Everything illuminated by greylight appears to be completely monochrome, and low-contrast, prismatic effects and other effects which function using colour (including, but not limited to colour spray, hypnotic pattern and scintillating pattern) have no effect while illuminated by greylight. The effects come into being and can be identified as normal, but simply do not do anything. Should the illumination be blocked, their normal effects resume. Text becomes difficult to read, and all Decipher Script have their DCs increased by +4 within the area of illumination, and casting a spell from a scroll requires a Use Magic Device check with a DC equal to 15 + spell level, and all other Use Magic Device checks involving scrolls have their DCs increased by +5.

Finally, creatures illuminated by greylight become lethargic and apathetic, and must make a Will save (DC 63) every round or take a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls for the remainder of the round, this is a mind-affecting effect.

Spell-Like Abilities
At will—shadow walk, true strike, crushing despair, silence, Caster level 75th; save DC 24 + spell level. The DC is Charisma-based.
At will- detect evil, Caster Level 37th
7/day dimension door, Caster Level 37th
1/day spike stones, Caster Level 37th
11/week remove disease, Caster Level 37th
[/SBLOCK]

Where are you getting the ruling of War Portfolio as not allowing one to be considered unarmored? I always figured it was an extension of Mithral, which if it ever counted as not wearing armor, would allow you a Monk's unarmored AC bonus. Also, others over at Dicefreaks were of the same mind, and I *think* U_K was as well.

It says you can use armour and shields without penalty. Strictly the only thing called a 'penalty' that armour imposes is the Armour Check Penalty, and the text of Heavy Armour Mastery also only refers to penalties. Even allowing it to extend to Arcane Spell Failure and Maximum Dexterity Bonus is a generous interpretation of the word 'penalty', which is a well defined term (a negative modifier to a roll). Mithral can't reduce an armour to below Light, so there's no precedent there. The shield proficiency feats refer to "the normal penalties" as armour check penalties, which again suggests that in the context of armour "penalties" means "armour check penalties". Comparing to all the other Prophet-level abilities, which mainly seem to be immunities that are easy to acquire elsewhere, and are worth approximately 1 DvA. If the War portfolio Prophet ability granted Heavy Armour mastery and Shield Mastery, that's some 9 feats (all 5 proficiency feats and the 4 mastery feats, and a few more feats if non-core material is allowed, due to the various exotic shields and armours which you need to take a feat to use), so it's not like the ruling makes it undervalued.

Of course, the most convincing argument to not rule that the War portfolio lets Monks prance around in Orichalcum Mountain Plate as if it were a lycra jumpsuit is that your dude can't hit himself even if he tried. (although that's partially due to the 'exoskeleton on a suit of armour trick'*, but that +40 isn't helping) That's a clear indication that you're being too generous with how you're calculating AC.

*In my games each of the three Natural Armour-boosting DvAs give you a -2 penalty to Dex each to dissuade people from taking them on dextrous builds, and to reflect the fact that being covered in metal plates should probably make it harder to move. I seem to recall U_K actually advocating harsher penalties somewhere, but I can't seem to find it. As soon as you've got more than 24 HD, the Exoskeleton abilities on a suit of armour render actual armour largely obsolete.

I do not plan on keeping him at ECL 150, instead making him far closer to the top tier of 239.

Advancing him to 239 (or close to it) just because that's the limit is probably in poor taste. Neo said that you should use an ECL necessary to represent the power of the creature in question. I've done 219, 160, 180 and 169, and the only reason the 219 came out so high is because I accidentally the entire build and wasn't ready to abandon the concept (Manoeuvres and Soulmelds and Powers on one character? Turns out you need a lot of levels to make it not suck). I was aiming at less than 200. Basically, if you're going over 190-ish, you should probably have a reason for it, both in terms of fluff and some mechanical necessity.

Question for you Buu,
Any suggestions regarding my desire to make a Death Knight equivalent of the Akalich?

I assume you mean a Cimerial, which is the Death Knight equivalent of a Demilich, since according to U_K (Here) the Death Knight equivalent of an Akalich is an Akalich. Cimerial's supposed to be in line with an LA +30 template, like Demi-Deity (overlapping with existing undead traits, less if it stacks). Given the name (Lord of Steel), the fact that it eventually progresses to Akalich, and that it's an advancement of a Death Knight, it's probably a suit of armour animated by an undead spirit, with no physical body, and they shed the suit to become an Akalich if they perform the rituals required to become an Akalich.

Becoming one probably requires fancy rituals and a suit of armour to inhabit. Since a Cimerial is a suit of armour, it can't wear armour (and loses natural armour, since it doesn't technically have a physical body) but gains an Enhancement bonus to its Armour equal to its HD/2 (on top of the probable 8 from being Full Plate). I'd give out Heavy Armour Mastery and its prerequisites for free, since the armour is now a part of itself. And Supreme Toughness, since Akaliches get Divine Toughness. It itself would benefit from the extra hp and hardness its armour's enhancement bonus provides it with. Triple speed (as is standard for the tier), Deflection to AC equal to Cha modifier, buffed ability scores and improved fear aura and blasts are all fairly obvious.

The mount is the most problematic, as a mere Nightmare isn't good enough. Writing up an Epic-level undead horsy thing is going to be needed, since a Cauchemar is just a big Nightmare. I don't want to give them an undead Dragon, since Death Knights getting horses is a Thing, and whatever it is probably should be an Outsider.
 
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What i hear is a lot of crying and whining. Much of what your complaining is either utterly irrelevant to this game or more easy to fix than your claiming.

I think I was the one who decided the topic of this discussion when I posted this thread.

I'm sure Neo and Bel would love to have to rewrite all the work that they've done. That's only going to take an entire weekend.

To be honest, that would take months for me to even consider publishing. Maybe only an actual entire weekend if you translate it directly into hours of actual time working on such an immense project, but unlike some people in my native country, I actually work for a living and have a social life. No thanks on that one EMG. I'll stick with 3.5

By the way EvilMonkeyGod, I'm very glad you decided to join us, despite what others' opinion of you may be. Glad to have you on board sir, but please keep in mind I'm the captain on this ship. Not you. Not Buugi. Belzamus would probably at least be my first mate considering the immense effort he has put into aiding me in the project.

Anyway, now that that is aside, I would like to formally apologize for my lack of presence in this discussion. As I mentioned earlier, I actually do have a life and things to do that don't involve role-playing or D&D.

Just to give you an idea, I currently have four running campaigns which I try to have a game ready for at least bi-weekly, if not weekly. Also, I'm revising one of WotC's Published adventures for this years Midsouthcon. (.:|:: MidSouthCon ::|:. if you're interested in attending).

Unfortunately I have nothing else to contribute to this discussion presently. I have a game scheduled today, and have a great deal of work to do regarding my other projects/campaigns... not to mention the fact that I actually have to sleep some time today.
 

Okay, for Gathroc. If that's Masker's Weapon Master you're using, I'd suggest posting the class to make sure Neo is okay with. Also, I believe Buugi used the old 3.0 weapon master in one of his builds, which may cause some issues.

Other than that, aside from the points Buugi mentioned, I think he needs a higher attack bonus to be relevant, as even making touch attacks, he's not going to be able to hit quite a few of the entrants. He may need some more defensive abilities, too. I'm so rusty on Tome of Battle, I forget how many of its maneuvers are even worth using at this high of a level besides stuff like Time Stands Still.

For the Cimerial, I rather like what Buugi suggested, also, from the name Lord of Steel, I kind of get the impression of being highly resistant to weapons, perhaps having the weapon debasement/whatever abilities innate, and perhaps weapon abatement as well.

I didn't know that Cimeriel evovled into the Akalich. Perhaps you could simply re-work the Akalich to focus on a martial aspect of some kind, rather than a magical one? I'm not sure who successful that would be with the incorporeality.

Also, this thread may be of some use. Apparently Cimeriel's have various magical weapons impaling their bodies. Maybe you could tie that in with the anti-weapon divine abilities somehow.

Otherwise, Deathknights are known for their SLAs and their Abyssal Fire, so enhancements to either of those (possibly as selectable salients) would probably be in order as well.
 

I read both linked articles, so thanks for that.

However, a Death Knight(Cimeriel) evolving into an Akalich seems pretty nonsensical to me. Death Knights were created via Demogorgon to be badass warriors, and it just doesn't make sense that they'd transcend into something so non-martial as an Akalich. I also don't feel incorporealness really fits for a DK. I mean sure, it makes them harder to kill, but only because they're insubstantial.

Now that I think about it, I believe I will look to the Pathfinder Graveknight for inspiration. Combined with the Dicefreaks Death Lord, and the suggestions here and elsewhere, I'll see if I can't come up with something suitable.

Also,
Raiment of the Damned is what gives Gathroc no armor check penalty and no max dex bonus....which is from he Dicefreaks Death Knight template.
 

@ Buugi - Did you factor into your combatants the fact that I don't allow VSCs to affect either dexterity or constitution scores? My guess is you did not based on the way I'm reading them.

This is the last time I'm going to mention this, so here it is.

Virtual size categories do not affect a creatures' dexterity scores. Nor do they affect a creatures constitution, nor natural armor or anything of the sort. VSCs affect raw damage ONLY. Final ruling. This is not subject to debate. Please adjust stat-blocks accordingly. Thank you.
 

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