A Tournament of Cosmic Propotions! (Immortal's Handbook Rules)

Evilmonkeygod

First Post
Neo, can we get a ruling on whether or not the Cimeriel should be on par with the power of the Akalich?

One thing I realized today at work, but forgot to post is that we're using the Dicefreaks Undead templates, as Alabaster is a Primal Vampire. As such, there is no Demilich, so it would make sense that a Death Lord might be around the power of a Demilich from the ELH, meaning that a Cimeriel would be up there with an Akalich.
 

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Neoiceshroom

Banned
Banned
Although un-banning it is fine too.

Sorry, I didn't even remember banning that ability. Sometimes things get mixed up inside my brain. For the most part it's a chaotic mess and sometimes things just... get lost for a while.

I assume this is a purely academic point, due to it being impossible to get Transcendentals on a character in this tournament? Even an item can only get you +119 (+135 with the Double Wealth portfolio) modifier equivalent, tops, and a Trans ability costs +216. Unless there's some trick I'm not aware of.

Technically having full access to a transcendental ability is nigh impossible for purposes of this tournament. The only way I could forsee an Akalich even being able to participate in this tourney given the ECL restrictions would be if they actually just took the template as published in the IH-Beastiary. Hypothetically one could make a greater deity with 80 class levels and 80 levels of template. That's ECL 160. Stack Akalich on top of that and it brings your total up to 230 which still technically falls within the limits of power designated for this event.

Exactly what's going to be contained within those ECLs is basically up to EMG. So far as I know he's the only one interested in entering an Akalich as a contender.

Neo, can we get a ruling on whether or not the Cimeriel should be on par with the power of the Akalich?

One thing I realized today at work, but forgot to post is that we're using the Dicefreaks Undead templates, as Alabaster is a Primal Vampire. As such, there is no Demilich, so it would make sense that a Death Lord might be around the power of a Demilich from the ELH, meaning that a Cimeriel would be up there with an Akalich.

Technically there is no need to figure out what type of ability a pre-established template would fall under, so long as they have a designated Level adjustment, it's easy to calculate.

For example, the Akalich... by default is a LA +70 template. The only reason why I decided to translate it into two Trans. abilities is because it's easier to fill up two trans. ability slots than to say "This ability costs the equivalent of one transcendental, five cosmics and four divines." Also... Divine templates mesh extraordinarily well with the Akalich Template.

Think about it this way, ordinary immortals cannot rejuvenate if they are slain on their home plane... but an immortal akalich... no problem at all. See what I'm getting at?

From what I read, Craig basically wanted all of his templates to be somehow "greater than the mere sum of their parts." and frankly I agree with the man in that regard. I like the way things are going so far.
 
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Evilmonkeygod

First Post
I understand all that, but that's not what I'm trying to figure out.

U_K never stated the Cimeriel, meaning we need to create it ourselves.

So I need to figure out it's Level Adjustment. Right now, the Cimeriel is around the power level of a Demilich, since both can be gained via a Cosmic ability.

My thinking is that, since we are using the Dicefreaks templates for undead, that means there's no Demilich. I figure a Death Lord, the 3rd tier of the DF Death Knight would probably be around the power of the Demilich as presented in the ELH.

So to me, the Cimeriel is around the power of the Akalich, or LA+70. Is that ok with you?? I'm not taking the Lord of Steel ability, but building it naturally, like you said I could do with the Akalich.
 

Evilmonkeygod

First Post
Some other stuff:

Uncanny Weapon Specialization confuses me. Does it mean that regardless of what my weapon is actually made out of, if I have a high enough Str, its treated as Orichalcum of the appropriate amount? For example, if I had a Str of 55 would my weapons automatically be treated as if they were 0.024% Orichalcum, thus dealing x3 damage, even if they were made out of simple steel?

Gathroc has Uncanny Weapon Focus, which means his BAB is equal to his class levels, right? His sheet says his BAB is +52, but if UWF does do that, then his BAB should be +95, currently. Which qualifies him for Unearthly Weapon Focus, which his gauntlets gives him.

Another idea I had for the Cimeriel is for it to have an effect similar to Debasement/Deficiency/Depreciation, but for it to effect whatever type of weapon strikes it, however I can't think of any drawback or limitation for this.

Also,
Any chance we can have all the rule changes copied to the first post? This way everything is easy to find.
 

Buugipopuu

First Post
Some other stuff:

Uncanny Weapon Specialization confuses me. Does it mean that regardless of what my weapon is actually made out of, if I have a high enough Str, its treated as Orichalcum of the appropriate amount? For example, if I had a Str of 55 would my weapons automatically be treated as if they were 0.024% Orichalcum, thus dealing x3 damage, even if they were made out of simple steel?

It only provides the density of the denser materials, not any other properties. It would not give them extra hp or hardness, or penetrate a hypothetical creature which had DR/Orichalcum.

Gathroc has Uncanny Weapon Focus, which means his BAB is equal to his class levels, right? His sheet says his BAB is +52, but if UWF does do that, then his BAB should be +95, currently. Which qualifies him for Unearthly Weapon Focus, which his gauntlets gives him.

It gives him BAB equal to the sum of all the BAB provided by his class levels. Things like Monk and Ninja still only have 3/4 BAB. Wizard 100 with UWF still only has a BAB of +50.
 

Neoiceshroom

Banned
Banned
I understand all that, but that's not what I'm trying to figure out.

U_K never stated the Cimeriel, meaning we need to create it ourselves.

So I need to figure out it's Level Adjustment. Right now, the Cimeriel is around the power level of a Demilich, since both can be gained via a Cosmic ability.

My thinking is that, since we are using the Dicefreaks templates for undead, that means there's no Demilich. I figure a Death Lord, the 3rd tier of the DF Death Knight would probably be around the power of the Demilich as presented in the ELH.

So to me, the Cimeriel is around the power of the Akalich, or LA+70. Is that ok with you?? I'm not taking the Lord of Steel ability, but building it naturally, like you said I could do with the Akalich.

I actually have created a version of the Demilich that is compatible with the Dicefreaks templates, but it is not split up into age categories like the DF Lich template is. I suppose you could just consider the Demilich the apex of normal Lichdom, a level beyond the "Eternal" Lich.

EMG, if you or Buugi or Belzamus or ANYONE else wants to take the time to advance this version of the Demilich I have created, by all means feel free to split it up into age categories and make resemble the DF templates even more.

As far as creating the Cimerial template from scratch.... you guys are on your own on that one, I have far too much on my plate to even attempt such an undertaking at the present time.

Also, Demilich is available to immortals for the cost of THREE cosmic abilities, not just one. I feel that if you're going to make the Cimerial on par with it as far as scale of power goes, then it should come out to be a bare minimum of a LA +18 template (three cosmics) just to start with, and then advance it from there.
 

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Buugipopuu

First Post
Also, Demilich is available to immortals for the cost of THREE cosmic abilities, not just one. I feel that if you're going to make the Cimerial on par with it as far as scale of power goes, then it should come out to be a bare minimum of a LA +18 template (three cosmics) just to start with, and then advance it from there.

Three cosmics should buy more than LA +18, assuming buying templates with DvAs doesn't increase your wealth. If you take an LA +18 template you get 18 levels of gear. If you get one with DvAs, you don't, so it should only cost two at most. If the +18 overlaps with existing templates, it should be even higher, since you've already spent two divines (Undeath and Lord of Bone) qualifying. Furthermore, all of the template-granting abilities seem to be slightly undercosted, which I believe is how it should be, as templates give you a suite of abilities whose utility is usually less than the sum of the costs of all of their abilities. Unless you're deliberately writing a template to do one specific thing. DF templates will have this less, since they have selectable salient abilities, which means they're more customisable, and so less likely to have useless abilities.
 

Neoiceshroom

Banned
Banned
Three cosmics should buy more than LA +18, assuming buying templates with DvAs doesn't increase your wealth. If you take an LA +18 template you get 18 levels of gear. If you get one with DvAs, you don't, so it should only cost two at most. If the +18 overlaps with existing templates, it should be even higher, since you've already spent two divines (Undeath and Lord of Bone) qualifying. Furthermore, all of the template-granting abilities seem to be slightly undercosted, which I believe is how it should be, as templates give you a suite of abilities whose utility is usually less than the sum of the costs of all of their abilities. Unless you're deliberately writing a template to do one specific thing. DF templates will have this less, since they have selectable salient abilities, which means they're more customisable, and so less likely to have useless abilities.

Oh wow, you're right. I totally forgot about equipment/wealth. Perhaps two cosmics would be a bit more reasonable.

Very well, Lord of the Skull shall cost two cosmic abilities. Final ruling. *Stamps with seal of approval*
 
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Neoiceshroom

Banned
Banned
So, is the VSC subject closed? I don't remember the issues ever being addressed.

I'm glad you brought this up my friend. I was thinking about it recently I have decided to allow VSCs to affect natural armor in certain cases.

To be honest, it makes logical sense in my mind for density to be translated into natural armor in the case of constructs and other creatures that have an actual mass. However, not all creatures have mass so it wouldn't be able to be published as a general rule, but rather a specific rule that applies to constructs.

Come to think of it... density should be a factor in how difficult it is to damage almost any living creature. The only exceptions I can fathom are as follows: Any creature with the "subtle body" epic feat, since you cannot influence weight or mass without also affecting density, it's a simple law of physics. Also, Air elementals or creatures of similar anatomic structure, for example the Amaliciti. Any creature with no strength score.

I think that's about it as far as VSCs affecting natural armor goes, any creature with VSCs for their size should benefit from natural armor. However, I stand by my ruling regarding VSCs leaving dex & con unaffected. My resoning for this is as follows:

+2 all attributes = +1 ECL

if you allowed VSCs to eaqual to bonus constitution and a penalty to dex, then every 15 points of strength would also eaqual -2 dex and +4 con, since there is more benefit than drawback to this equation you end up with +2 con for virtually nothing.

Therefore if you allow free constitution every 15 points of strength then +1 ECL =/= +1 ECL and the entire leveling mechanic breaks.
 
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