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A (very slightly) modified fighter

Hey there Gez,
First of all, I want to let you know that I really like the versatility this variant fighter offers. :D
I showed it to my DM, however, and two minutes later, he said "too much that you can powergame with." So, of course I asked how, and this is one example. Human, your variant, let's go with level twelve.
Ok, this gives us 8 bonus feats, including extra feat at creation as a human, or 6 feats and 2 stunts, in addition to 5 feats from leveling (for a total of 13 stunts and feats combo). Let's assume a high dex warrior, so he takes weapon finesse, for times when he has a light weapon to utilize to it's max, and weapon focus great sword, because those are just good. Then at level 4, he specializes in Great sword. Now let's go for monkey grip because he wants a shield as well. These Are the important ones in the beginning, then you can fill others up with the power attack cleave tree are even two hand fighting tree (actually you can take power attack, cleave, and the three two weapon fighting feats to fill up to level 12 feat potential). At eighth level, he takes the graceful combat stunt. Then at 9th greater weapon focus great sword, and at twelve of course We take twin weapon stunt, Buy a second great sword, and there is a feat here to spare as well, so take greater weapon spec great sword.
Ok, so now we have a very dexterous fighter wielding two great swords, one handed, with little or no penalty (depending on the feat tree he took), and potentially power attacking like mad. Since he focused on dex, he has potentially good ac as well. Then at 16 he could take flurry of strikes, which gives him extra attacks, with a small penalty, but his attack bonus should be able to support it. Or he could take Weapon mastery, which adds more attack bonus. Obviously you will have dex bonus, magical enhancements, and such to add, so my DM feels this is a slightly broken path.
If I did my math right, the six attacks at 2d6 damage each (again assuming the lvl 12 fighter) are at +16, +11, +6, +16, +6, and -4. I am assuming a good dex, but let’s say it is 18 so +4 on each, and let's assume +2 straight enhancements on each sword. I don't think 22,17,12,22,12,2 is bad at level 12. If first five hit, you have base damage well into the thirties, before magic bonuses, ability bonuses and whatnot. I think an average round of damage for this would be around 60 or so, let's not think about crits. I know some of this doesn't sound too bad, but throw in power attack, and crits and you are dealing a lot for your level, I think. So this is the first way he thought of breaking this combination, and honestly he came up with two more, but this is only one i could remember.
If I have made any math mistakes or blunders in using your alternate progression, please do correct me. As I said, I liked your variant, but as it stands, my DM won't let it fly. :\
 

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Well, IMC, the Monkey Grip feat does not exist. :)

But that's not a serious way to answer your concern.

To take your estimate of 60 damage/round for a 16th level fighter, is that too much?

The average 16th-level NPC fighter, according to the DMG, will have attacks of +23/+18/+13/+8. With his greatsword, 1d10+9 damage. If you assume all attacks of 12 and above hit for the alt. fighter with dual-wielding, monkey-gripping greatsword; then only the last attack of the NPC fighter will fail. 3x1d10+9=43 damage a round. So a properly optimized fighter could do 33% more... Impressive, but I'm not sure it's really game breaking, because the average NPC fighter has not been as optimized.
 

hey there gez,
Actually, i was figuring the 60 damage at 12th level, I just projected a few possibilities up to level 16. In my personal opinion, and having talked with my DM further, there are simple ways to lessen this impact, using creatures that have dr for example, and a few other things. But in the end, he still would prefer to use the base fighter, which is unfortunate because as I said, I like the versatility and flavor added with a few simple stunts, great concept.
 

neelum said:
Then at 16 he could take flurry of strikes [... or ...] he could take Weapon mastery [...] I think an average round of damage for this would be around 60 or so, let's not think about crits.

Here's why I thought you said the 60 damage were at level 16.

The problem of the base fighter is that, well, he's boring. So people use it as a footstool to reach a prestige class faster. Frankly, I think if you compare my alt. fighter at level 12 with a fighter 6/random PrC from Complete Warrior 6; the powergaming potential is greater in the PrC approach.

My main incentive to make this alt. fighter was to reduce the appeal of, and the need for, prestige classes.
 

We had the same issues with Fighters. They were never designed to be taken to level 20. There is no incentive to remain in the class to level 20 over PrCing or even mutliclassing normally. One thing we did to alter this was to give a Bonus Feat at every level instead of every even level starting at level 10. This doesnt make the Fighter even more of a "Dip" class than it already is and rewards a fighter for attaining higher levels in the core class. Howver, I have noted that it still isnt incentive enough to prevent PrCing. I just dont think the fighter can be made attractive enough to avoid the PrC issue.
 


Because it's a bad design to make feats requiring a level of of a certain class. WotC made some of them, but that's bad. Feats are supposed to be stuff that reach accross the various character classes; i.e., you don't need to be a wizard to craft scrolls as any spellcaster, even a paladin or ranger, could take that feat eventually.

Class-exclusive feats are not feats.
 


Gez said:
Because it's a bad design to make feats requiring a level of of a certain class. WotC made some of them, but that's bad.
Yeah, I always think it's glaringly weird whenever I see a feat or prestige class that requires levels in a certain class as a prerequisite. It's such an obvious internal inconsistency in a system that has Rage or Bardic Music as prerequisites for some things, instead of actually requiring levels of Barbarian or Bard.

I'm glad this thread got resurrected, though. I'm usually leery of houserules to make the Fighter class "less bland", because the generic nature of the class is one of its real strengths. But this is a change that actually makes it more flexible, and I support that completely.
 

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