a way to deal with lax players?

[Shin Okada]

I have a question. Are your players enjoy dying?

I guess.. maybe they are. There are players who just like to play slapstick and laugh at their own PCs' deaths. I used to play such games when playing Tunnels and Trolls or low-level Chromatic D&D. Those games were like Monty Python and Holy Grail. In the start of each sessions, more than half of the players were rolling up new PCs.

 

[Bercilac]

Try to work WITH their playing style

Aye, character death can be fun. Regarding the original question, here are a couple of ways to get your spellcasters using better spells (a few may have been mentioned before):

1. Have NPCs use them on them. Check that spellcasters have spellcraft... When spell X puts someone's insides on their outside, you can bet the players are going to want to do it to others.

2. Create an encounter that trumps their normal approach... but place in such a way that they will quickly realise they're losing (fighter takes massive damage and spells running out, no progress in sight), and then they can run away. Don't be vindictive: let them get away. If this offends your sense of reality, give them a getaway car (magic carpet, teleportation device, whatever). Give them a moment to strategise and rest up, then attempt it again. Maybe they have to lay siege to a small fortress. It ain't going anywhere, and sieges are meant to take a while.

3. Just be explicit. At the end of the adventure, say "You know, you could have saved yourself a lot of grief on those thingumies if you had cast whatsit. Man, that's a great spell. HINT EFFING HINT." Don't be as sarcastic as I am, though.

Regarding dragon-hunting, one of the problems here is that you've shown the sweetest adventure hook as one they're not supposed to take. I've done this myself, from time to time. You do a great job fleshing out your world, complete with "Here be dragons," and the players don't think it's dangerous. Then again, your players seem to KNOW it's dangerous by now. But maybe you could design several SAFER places that are also fun?

"Don't go near the Bugbear stronghold. They eat chumps like you for breakfast." (delivered by a 100-pound starving peasant)

Then watch them trash a bugbear stronghold, and come back and tell the peasant "HA! I told you so. You're problem is just that you're poor, malnourished, and lack the proper magical superweapons!"

ETA:
Alternatively, consider their weakness a strength. Send them against an army. I had a DM who did this: a literal army. We were on a military campaign. Area-of-affect spells are fun against densely packed pikemen... "Undercasting" maybe, but fun.

 

[Flatus Maximus]

I have a solution: the players are only allowed ONE bottle of Mountain Dew at the table.

Or maybe limit how much beer can be consumed...nah, nevermind.

 

[Wozzer]

I think the fact that your players played 1E/2E shows how that mentality is hard to shake. Like other posters said Fireball was the spell you waited for and was a mass killer in the days before power attack and sneak attack - so they roll out the usual suspects and keep making the same mistakes. But if they're having fun what the hey. Let them play dumb barbarian half-ogres next time ---then they could be led by the nose and unleashed when the c*** hit the fan. And a half-ogre barbarian would cope well with the toe to toe fighting of 1E/2E days

 

[Awakened]

Kill off both the mage and the cleric. When they stare at you in disbelief, ask "are there any questions?" Any time those spells are used from now on, it results in instant death. Blame it on some imbalance of the world's magical forces, causing all casters to spontanously combust. Go for tears, you can't be too hard on a player.

 

[krupintupple]

it seems that at least the cleric was temporarily cured of his insanity. they were fighting a drow necromancer who had an item that increased natural spell resistance so everything they tried bounced off of him.

although healthy, their spells were quickly running out. the cleric used a scroll of lightning bolt on the old wooden ceiling above the necromancer (they were battling in an abandoned grain silo) causing it to collapse and fall ON the necromancer. it bounced back and forth inside the structure and, due to some excellent rolling, dealt almost enough damage to obliterate the aged stone. they were really pleased with themselves and i'm hoping that it'll give them a hint that trying to power through every encounter by lobbing spells isn't going to work.

the necromancer had a cadre of spellstitched ghouls - they had shield as their spell, so no magic missile. also, they were made from azers, so they were immune to fire (fireball); i realize this might not all be kosher, but it really allowed the other members to shine, and forced them to rethink their ways.

 

[Aran Thule]

Glad to hear that they had a brain burst.
Just a thought but maybe dropping in a few wands with only a couple of charges could provoke their imagination.
Have a few minions use them against the party for example:
A kobold with a wand of colour spray

Or have a caster cast pryrotechnics on a fireball (fireball will still work but would seem to explode with a blinding flash)

Just simple things that can show the utility of some spells.

Or for laughs you could put them in a cave with explosive gas so no flames allowed and put a nerro in there. (not sure if i spelled that right, its a creature from the plane of mirrors with reflective spell resistance)

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

I'm kinda confused on where the problem is.

You wish they'd use more spells... so what?

You keep killing characters and they keep making new ones. Obviously, they don't care enough about what you're doing to change their approach, so... *shrug* what's the big deal?

It sounds like really it's a mis-match between you and at least a couple of the other players in terms of what you want/expect from the game.

Dancing around the issue isn't going to solve anything. If you want them to do something different, _tell them_. Tell the players, "Look this isn't working guys. I'm expecting/wanting [x], and you dudes are doing [y]. Let's figure out what's going on here..."

Oh, and the suggestion to just kill off the character anytime they use a certain spell? Total dick move; passive-aggressive GM crap that I'd expect to see 10 or 15 years ago... not now. It's not anybody's fault that you as a GM expect/want one thing and it seems like the players are after another. That's like screaming at somebody because they like pepperoni on their pizza but you want mushrooms.

 

[Magesmiley]

So, one notion that comes to mind is to set up a situation where they can plan ahead. Let them get ahold of a map that sketches out a forthcoming adventure area, including what inhabits it. Put stuff in there which their regular tactics won't work against, or which other spells would be more effective choices.

If they have an ounce of sense, they'll consider their loadouts and choose spells which can more effectively deal with the encounters. I'd load it up with creatures with the fire type to start with.

If they still pick their standard loads, they have some serious issues.

A second notion that comes to mind: Give the enemies a favored soul and sorcerer with the players' favorite spells on their list. Have these NPCs ready actions to counterspell the players. Make sure it is a situation that the characters can retreat from to try again. The sorcerer/favored soul will outlast the wizard/cleric on spell slots if they insist on continuing.

I pulled this on one of my players one time when her wizard only ever prepped fireballs. It taught her to choose some other spells (still damage dealing, but at least other spells started madkingit into her daily choices).

 

[krupintupple]

I'm kinda confused on where the problem is.

assuming that you've not read over the jist of the thread, the problem was originally that some players would rely upon one or two spells only, even if there were better fits for the encounter. this normally wouldn't matter, but when it was the party's artillery and main healer, it became problematic.

ie: party encounters a theoretical Monster X, who has Fire Resistence 25, yet 5th level mage lobs fireball after fireball on it, even though a knowledge check would determine that it's really not bothered by magical fire.

or

ie: party is warned against venturing into the forgotten crypt of a deity of disease and poison, so cleric loads up with 'Prayer x 4' on his spell list, instead of 'Remove Disease x2, Prayer x1, Restoration x1, ect'

also, i'm not killing them in retaliation for anything, nor would i. i'd mentioned previously that almost 80% of the character deaths came from the same two players, who, although annoyed, didn't really seem to find it that much of a set-back.

other members in the group sometimes browse their spell list and make suggestions, which fall on deaf ears, or they're told they should take a level in mage if they're so good at playing it. part of the problem is that magically, i couldn't throw something really interesting at the party, or there might be more deaths, due to the healer not really being a healer (but he's gotten quite a bit better about things lately) and the artillery not really doing much else. i suggested to the player of the Wizard that he could swap into Warmage, which'd give the same spells, except more uses of them per day. he said he didn't want to, as he likes the flexibility of the Wizard (i don't know...)