A worry about "special case monster abilities"

[Dausuul]

The "human shield" move strikes me as the sort of thing that ought to be covered by some kind of stunt system--a set of guidelines for house-ruling bizarre PC tactics on the fly. If we have that, I'm happy. I certainly don't need explicit rules in the PHB for it.

 

[Sitara]

Umm, pc's could Trip in 3e. Improved trip was also a feat.

 

[The Little Raven]

Umm, pc's could Trip in 3e. Improved trip was also a feat.

We're talking about the Wolf's "Trip" ability, which gives him a free trip attempt after a successful bite attack. Improved Trip gives a free attack after a successful trip.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

On the whole I'm encouraged by the idea of 4e MM creatures having all the information needed to play them effectively in the stat block.

There is one thing that I'm worried about though, and I hope it doesn't happen - and that is a proliferation of "special case monster abilities".

An example from 3e that always jarred with me was the Bebeliths ability to 'rend armour'. It seemed strange that it had such a unique ability (surely anything huge+ with claws should be able to do that?). It stood out like a proud nail when compared to the pretty standard way most other monster abilities were handled.

Cheers

It was the giant undead beastie that could crush your weapons in it's hands that bugged me. I didn't even need to roll for it, just a quick disarm (and because it was bigger than you it found that easy) and then WHAM! Your weapon was gone.

So long as they're careful about these new 'monster powers' I'm quite happy wtih the idea. Monsters should have interesting new powers - it makes them different from PC's!

 

[Steely Dan]

Monsters should have interesting new powers - it makes them different from PC's!

We all remember what happened with the sarrukh…

 

[DandD]

What's a sarrukh?

 

[FourthBear]

What's a sarrukh?

The sarrukh are a reptilian progenitor race in the Forgotten Realms, fleshed out in the Serpent Kingdoms supplement.

Here's a wiki link:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sarrukh

They are justly infamous as an example of poor monster and game design in 3e. The sarrukh were given the power in their stat block to modify members of the reptilian subtype, capable of giving them better attributes. The concept being that the sarrukh's hook was that they were sort of magical super-geneticists, capable of creating reptilian super-beings to do their bidding. The ability was very open-ended and would be screamingly abusable in a PCs hands. The most infamous case being Pun-Pun, I believe. There, a kobold (and therefore a member of the reptilian sub-type) was written up using various 3e rules to gain the sarrukh's ability and use it to enhance his own stats to arbitrarily high levels.

Frankly, I consider the sarrukh simply an example of rotten design, no matter what the system. I don't think any game system would have stopped that bit of nonsense. You'll note that it happened without a 4e style encouragement of special monster abilities. Actually, a system like 4e that encourages the idea that monster abilities are in a very separate category from PC abilities and shouldn't be available to PCs by some kind of default game design would have stopped Pun-Pun in his tracks.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Hmm. I am not sure you are allowed to move in a grapple, and you still have to be in the same square, barring special abilities, don't you?

Since a 5' step as a basic movement unit is the only thing you can still do as a free action while continuing a full-round action, it should work in a grapple as well, and since you are not moving away from the grapple, but only moving around with a pinned opponent, I don't think it's too far fetched.

Otherwise, I could simply work with the "no facing" rules D&D prefers, and say that any time a grappler has somebody pinned in his grip, he can simply use him as a meat shield against one outside attacker the same round he makes his pinning grapple, gaining a +4 Cover bonus to AC and checking if the attacker hits the living cover (who doesn't get his Dex bonus, and so cannot even move out of the way as decribed in the relevant chapter).

Apart from that, to be a bit more OT...it's funny to see 4E move back towards a more old-fashioned way to handle monsters and NPCs, mainly DM fiat, only this time they want to provide the DM with a solid framework to make the "handwaving" more or less coherent. Going by my experiences with RPGs and their promises in the last 20 years, I remain sceptically amused until I see it (and get to try it out). If they pull this off, it'll be a MAJOR help for any DM. Until then, I handle monsters and NPCs relatively similar in every edition/RPG...I stat out the most important bits (combat stats, special abilities, important skills), and wing the rest as I see fit. 3.X didn't take that ability from me, and neither the ability to make the PCs stand in the spotlight all the time, no matter how important the NPC/monster in question was. That's part of my job description as DM after all...never let PCs play second fiddle to anything.

 

[Steely Dan]

Actually, a system like 4e that encourages the idea that monster abilities are in a very separate category from PC abilities and shouldn't be available to PCs by some kind of default game design would have stopped Pun-Pun in his tracks.

Right on, and is my point exactly.

 

[Imban]

The sarrukh are a reptilian progenitor race in the Forgotten Realms, fleshed out in the Serpent Kingdoms supplement.

Here's a wiki link:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sarrukh

They are justly infamous as an example of poor monster and game design in 3e. The sarrukh were given the power in their stat block to modify members of the reptilian subtype, capable of giving them better attributes. The concept being that the sarrukh's hook was that they were sort of magical super-geneticists, capable of creating reptilian super-beings to do their bidding. The ability was very open-ended and would be screamingly abusable in a PCs hands. The most infamous case being Pun-Pun, I believe. There, a kobold (and therefore a member of the reptilian sub-type) was written up using various 3e rules to gain the sarrukh's ability and use it to enhance his own stats to arbitrarily high levels.

Frankly, I consider the sarrukh simply an example of rotten design, no matter what the system. I don't think any game system would have stopped that bit of nonsense. You'll note that it happened without a 4e style encouragement of special monster abilities. Actually, a system like 4e that encourages the idea that monster abilities are in a very separate category from PC abilities and shouldn't be available to PCs by some kind of default game design would have stopped Pun-Pun in his tracks.

Well, Pun-Pun was just an exercise in getting the Sarrukh ability to bestow infinite power onto a creature that could bestow infinite power onto itself. Any Sarrukh can create a being of infinite power (or a being that can bestow infinite power upon itself) just by making stupid changes to a random kobold, including giving it that ability of its own volition.

I likewise don't see any design guideline that would stop people from writing up powers that can do anything, ever, other than an informal guideline to not do that and editors who enforce it. In 4e, you could still have a monster that could bestow infinite power upon other monsters, or blow up the entire universe (there's a 3e monster in Mongoose's Epic Monsters book that can inflict nigh-infinite damage over a nigh-infinite area of effect with a save DC of nigh-infinity), or whatever. It's equally lousy writing even if a player can't actually arrogate that ability for his character.