Abilities in exchange for Experience points: Good or Bad Idea.

[WizarDru]

I just read Path of the Sword, last night, and while I was initially concerned at the concept, I don't see a problem with it, as written there. I can't speak to Mongoose's implementation.

As written in PotS, Fighting Styles require you to find an appropriate teacher, who grants you a lesson that requires a fixed set of time, XP and has a level requirement. Successful completion of the time and XP requirements grant you what is essentially equal to a new feat or ability.

The power-levels presented within the book do not strike me as staggeringly powerful. At sixth level, I can take up to four lessons, each getting progressively more expensive. The first, IIRC, was 100 x.p., while the forth lesson was about 1000 x.p., I think. The abilities for one particular fighting style gave you abilities like evasion or darkvision, I think. Without the book in front of me, I can't say for sure...but none of them was terribly powerful for the level at which you attained it.

The impression that I got was that these were non-magical alternatives for fighters. In a game with few or no casters, such abilities would be helpful, perhaps even necessary. I didn't percieve any large imbalance, and if treated with the same reticence one views new feats, spells and prestige classes, then I don't think it's a problem.

 

[Li Shenron]

Item creation is, effectively, spending XP (and gp) to gain new abilities.

I haven't yet express my opinion on item creation mechanics.

Suggestion: mixing the standard level-based system with powers for xp points is not a good idea. If you really want that sort of system, move ENTIRELY to one, ala M&M or GURPS.

Exactly what I am trying to say: it's a perfectly fine system when used alone. It is still ok if you give out just a few abilities with it and then advance normally. It can be a total mess if some PCs exploits the opportunity a lot while the rest of the PCs advance normally.

You do in fact spend them and you do in fact lose them. Say you're 1st level. You have 999 XP. I give you 2XP. You now have a total of 1001XP, and you're now 2nd level. But, out of that 1001XP, 1000 of it is now gone. You spent it. On what? A second class level. You can't use it for items. You can't use it for wish. You can't use it for prestige race modifications. You can't use it for anything. The only XP you ever have to spend is the XP between levels. That's it.

You know what I wanted to mean, kreynolds Of course it's like spending them, I just want to point out that with this variant you may have half a party of 10th level PCs and half a party of 1st level PCs just as powerful as the others (assuming the xp cost of the extra abilities is chosen very well); then you'll have to find a more difficult way to substitute CRs or average party level to give Xps, and you'll have to manage the consequences for the PCs to be still low level (for spell effects, caster level...).

Essentially you'll have to write the whole game from zero*. My point is just that if you use the variant as a regular base and the PCs exploit it, you are playing another game. It's fine, I don't mean it's horrible, but D&D is still a "traditional" class-based game, even if it gets more flexible every product comes out.

* I mean, if someone stays behind in level, you will consider to buy a caster level increase, an effective level increase or an extra hit die in exchange for Xps.

 

[hong]

I haven't yet express my opinion on item creation mechanics.

Please do.

You know what I wanted to mean, kreynolds Of course it's like spending them, I just want to point out that with this variant you may have half a party of 10th level PCs and half a party of 1st level PCs just as powerful as the others (assuming the xp cost of the extra abilities is chosen very well);

Contrived examples do not make for a plausible case.

Essentially you'll have to write the whole game from zero*.

Rot.

 

[Li Shenron]

Please do.

It was meant to be read between the lines

Contrived examples do not make for a plausible case.

Why not?

 

[hong]

It was meant to be read between the lines

Given that D&D is balanced with the given item creation mechanics in mind, I can only say that taking them out would constitute

playing another game.

Why not?

Because the only possible conclusion that can be drawn is that bad DMs result in bad games, which is not particularly enlightening.

 

[Li Shenron]

Given that D&D is balanced with the given item creation mechanics in mind, I can only say that taking them out would constitute...

Never took them out neither said they should. There are still other things that make them work basically fine.

Because the only possible conclusion that can be drawn is that bad DMs result in bad games, which is not particularly enlightening.

I wouldn't like to be a DM who introduces an opportunity and later imposes a hard bound because some players have used it more then he expected.

...but now I'll go home and search in the voc what "contrived" means... before posting rot again.

 

[kreynolds]

You know what I wanted to mean, kreynolds

I think so, but I wanted to be sure.

...I just want to point out that with this variant you may have half a party of 10th level PCs and half a party of 1st level PCs just as powerful as the others (assuming the xp cost of the extra abilities is chosen very well);

But the 1st level guys will not be just as powerful as the others though. After all, they have 1 hit die. They're adventuring with a couple 10 hit die characters. What are their odds for survival? Pretty bad, I'd wager. So, while not as powerful, they certainly are front-loaded, and they'll die young.

Essentially you'll have to write the whole game from zero*.

...

* I mean, if someone stays behind in level, you will consider to buy a caster level increase, an effective level increase or an extra hit die in exchange for Xps.

I think you're exagerating a little here. Its either that or I'm just not catching your meaning. Can you try explaining it another way?

 

[DonAdam]

Note: I skipped the last two pages, because I'm lazy.

It does, but it does so using level adjustments and ECL. The concept of both level adjustments and ECL is not limited to Savage Species. It's been around since the DMG and the FRCS. Its a very versatile concept.

Savage Species is fine (except the individual instances where it's broken) because it uses the levelling system, rather than just floating XP, to add power.

What I was talking about was that I haven't seen one good way other than wealth limits to give players power beyond what race and class provide. Savage Species is merely race and class.

I'm also fine with Level Adjustments. They bypass my critique of XP, because they fit into the levelling system. My problem with XP is that you might end up one adventure behind the other players at worst, which means it only hurts you every once in a while.

Level Adjustment, on the other hand, brings it right up to that increment where it hurts you. Furthermore, LA is a disadvantage that appropriately scales with level, as it essentially gives you a debt at whatever the increment is that will for sure hurt you for that level.

This is critical, because it means that the sacrifice isn't becoming more and more insignificant, as it is with XP-for-power tradeoffs.

My position stands. I have yet to see any good way of giving charactes power beyond their race and class that is balanced other than the wealth limit rules.

The reason I liked 4CTF so much is that it used wealth limits to measure super powers. The table is even a little off, but at least they got the concept right.

 

[kreynolds]

Note: I skipped the last two pages, because I'm lazy.

Then you won't mind if I skip this post.

Seriously, there's some good input from everyone back there. You should read it.

 

[The Proconsul]

It just occured to me that in the Legend of the Five Rings variant of xp-bought "feats", only one of them can be active at once. They also require about half an hour of preparation and last only about 2 hours (depending on the circumstances, this can be quite some drawback).

So I would think twice before buying dozens of katas, when I can only use one at a time!