D&D 4E Ability Caps and 4e: Dumping the Dump Stat

[Ferghis]

Re: initiative

That is generally not my experience. PC initiative usually outstrips monster initiative, because PCs have access to _far_ more bonuses. For example, monsters increase initiative at roughly +3/4 level, while PCs increase at 1/2 level + (tier / 2) + (all other bonuses), so other bonuses need to work out to (level * 9/10) / 4 => or about 6 by 30th level superior initiative alone is +8 which is already greater than that value, without looking at class/path/destiny, item, or power bonuses, or the ability to roll twice for initiative. Some PCs also roll initiative using a skill check, such as elves using perception. I know one PC who rolls perception who has _never lost initiative_ to a monster.

Odd, only because my experience is the opposite. Monsters' initiative is a composite of their level and their Dex bonus, both of which increase linearly with level (as you said, this increases initiative by +3/4 per level). Unless characters have a Dex primary (or init-contributing primary) or they invest in initiative via feats or items, characters' initiative only increases by +1/2 level. So, by the time we reach 40th, without said investments, a non init-primary character is down by 7 points (the +1/4) relative to a monster. A single feat can make up for that, but that leaves me with the flavor of a math fix, a "mandatory" feat. I despise these non-choices. A warlord with tactical presence also fixes the gap, and, luckily, they are one of the more common leaders. But three of my characters (my fighter, wizard, and warden), are forced to resort to a items and, when possible, expending a feat to stay competitive.

Obviously, none of this applies to initiative-primary characters.

 

[keterys]

No one particularly likes that all of the math fixes for the system lies in feats, but that doesn't change the fact that they're easily available. You also get +1 to all stats at 11 and 21, which gives you +1 to init whether you like it or not. (my +6 vs your +7)

In addition, a warlord (even a hybrid one) gives +5 to +10 power bonus to initiative, a common helm gives +1 per tier, a variety of perfectly good items give +1 per 5 levels, some power, some item. PCs have the option to "fight the system" and revel in very slowly decreasing effective initiative, but even minimal interest in addressing it evens the score and only slightly above minimal interest puts PCs far ahead of monsters.

An optimized group, that cares about going first, may entirely outstrip monsters using abilities like Decisive Timing, the Noble theme, the w(oo/il?)d elf initiative racial that gives +2 to anyone who has a lower initiative than you, etc to make sure even that one PC who doesn't have a good initiative catches up to the pack.

There can be exceptions, of course, but at the many tables I look to for playtest results, or get play results from conventions, it's a general rule that monsters go after PCs unless some step is taken to give them a chance to act. Hence a lot of my adventures have methods of letting the monsters act and a typical modifier for more optimized groups is to give +5 to initiative to monsters, and many "boss" monsters will go multiple times a round, such as on 50, 40, and 30.

 

[Ferghis]

No one particularly likes that all of the math fixes for the system lies in feats, but that doesn't change the fact that they're easily available. You also get +1 to all stats at 11 and 21, which gives you +1 to init whether you like it or not. (my +6 vs your +7)

You're correct, my mistake. I hate it.

An optimized group, that cares about going first, may entirely outstrip monsters using abilities like Decisive Timing, the Noble theme, the w(oo/il?)d elf initiative racial that gives +2 to anyone who has a lower initiative than you, etc to make sure even that one PC who doesn't have a good initiative catches up to the pack.

Optimized groups can overcome just about anything, particularly if they're optimizing for that very thing. But the perspective that I try to work under is for the non-optimized players. I don't want them forced to take math-fixers just to maintain the status quo. I don't want to necessarily work with warlords. I want them to be able to select any valid choice, and none of them to be a mistake.

 

[keterys]

One benefit of cutting the stat inflation off, is that you could also pick off some of the boring math feats at the same time.

Take (improved / superior / focus) (initiative, expertise, defenses, damage) out in back and shoot them, replace with something new and shiny.

Or possibly even just give folks +level instead of +1/2 level and drop enhancement bonuses too. Now you're cooking with new crazy possibilities.

 

[Ferghis]

One benefit of cutting the stat inflation off, is that you could also pick off some of the boring math feats at the same time.

Take (improved / superior / focus) (initiative, expertise, defenses, damage) out in back and shoot them, replace with something new and shiny.

Or possibly even just give folks +level instead of +1/2 level and drop enhancement bonuses too. Now you're cooking with new crazy possibilities.

This would all be welcome.

 

[CM]

Hi, CM!

The suggestion that Ferghis mentioned is written right into my Complete 4th Edition compilation-clone as "RAW," but it can just as easily be applied to 4e games. The rule is just as Ferghis describes -- anytime a PC would get +1 to two abilities, he instead gets +1 to all abilities. Indeed, it began as a house rule in my own 4e group!

Thanks, I will check it out.

Do you find this removes the need for Fort/Ref/Will-boosting feats?

 

[C4]

Thanks, I will check it out.

Do you find this removes the need for Fort/Ref/Will-boosting feats?

It absolutely does, and in fact my group has banned these feats.

I should mention that we've also banned the Expertise feats, and instead give PCs a +1 'expert bonus' per tier to attacks and defenses.

 

[Ferghis]

I should mention that we've also banned the Expertise feats, and instead give PCs a +1 'expert bonus' per tier to attacks and defenses.

Is there a way to get the riders that go along with the expertise feats?

 

[C4]

Is there a way to get the riders that go along with the expertise feats?

Sure, players can spend feat slots to get the riders themselves.

I guess it would have been more accurate to say that my group has banned the bonus part of the feat taxes.