ability roll cheating

[Crothian]

This is a point that I think deserves more comment, I think.

If the DM sets a character creation scheme that is set for the entire group (say 4d6, drop lowest), what happens when the player gets a set of stats that are not what he wants? Perhaps his character concept required an 'unnecessarily' hige Cha (perhaps for a Fighter), but the dice come up with only a couple of good numbers. This gives the player two choices: ditch the character concept, or play a suboptimal character.

Or be creatve enough to make it work for the concept. People get to caught up in the numbers. Rarely when a player says he can't play his concept is he actually right. Usually he is really saying I don't want to play this character with stats that are this low. A 14 is a high score, a +2 modifier is meaningful. People seem to forget that or ignore it.

 

[Breakdaddy]

You can't use such a system with mature adults because mature adults, by definition, cannot act is such a way to need such a system....

As my aside, I attacked your post along with another because I have seen such behaviour not work, and badly so. I could not in good concience allow such advice to go unchallenged because there are always a lot of lurkers around & maybe one will follow such advice.

Thank God you are there to police idiots like me! Do I owe you a stipend for sharing your wisdom, or is your advice freely dispatched to the unwashed masses as a gift (would that it could be so!!!!)?


Once again, the system works fine with my mature adult group of 7 gamers.
It works because the players want to eliminate cheating from the game just as much as I do. They agreed to my stipulation on cheating and applauded it. Now, here comes the clincher: Does it work for everyone? PROBABLY NOT! Thus, the "YMMV" at the end of my original post.

 

[Darkness]

Folks, let's keep this discussion friendly, please. Thanks.

 

[amethal]

This is a point that I think deserves more comment, I think.

I agree, but I've never before seen it commented upon. The debate has always seemed to revolve around "players cheat, so use point buy".

(Now, in actual fact, the answer is that players should be flexible in their character concept. If a random roll scheme is agreed on, the player really can't expect a given number of 'good' stats, or to have no below average numbers, and needs to be able to mold his concept to match what he has available.

I like your arguments, but why?

If I want to play an archer cleric, and my minimum ability score requirements are modest, why can't I have them even if my rolls fall short?

My cheating character had the lowest ability scores in a party of 6 (none of them rolled in front of the DM).

If I want to choose the character, then roll the dice, is the DM really entitled to say that the dice are what is important and I need to base my character concept on the result?

To put it another way, I'm not willing to be flexible in my character concept. If I want to play an archer cleric, I'm not willing to play a useless archer or a useless cleric, or compromise as a barbarian because that would make best use of what I've rolled.

 

[Crothian]

To put it another way, I'm not willing to be flexible in my character concept. If I want to play an archer cleric, I'm not willing to play a useless archer or a useless cleric, or a barbarian because that would make best use of what I've rolled.

Then if your group ever choses to use dice rolls, stand up and walk out on that group. But frankly, for a cleric archer all you really needs a is a 15 for wisdom and a 14 for dexterity. That should be easy enough with rolling, and if not then do the best you can. Its not always about the stats.

 

[Lobo Lurker]

My old DM didn't care how we generated our stats. He'd even let us write 18's across the board. We learned quickly that we shouldn't do this, however. His favorite saying was "Superhero players face superhero monsters".

I remember that my Wizard (11th level; back in 2nd Ed.) cast a succession of 3 fireballs on a group of ogres. One died.

 

[amethal]

Then if your group ever choses to use dice rolls, stand up and walk out on that group.

If you would do that, then you are my hero (even more than you are already).
DM: "I don't want any cheating. Go home and roll 4d6 drop lowest 6 times, once only, and allocate amongst your 6 ability scores. If, and only if, you fail to meet the minimum ability score requirements in the Players Handbook then you may re-roll."

Crothian: "No thanks, I have a modest character concept in mind which the vagaries of the dice might fail to meet. I'll find another group, instead of risking the laws of probability."

But frankly, for a cleric archer all you really needs a is a 15 for wisdom and a 14 for dexterity. That should be easy enough with rolling

I failed on my first attempt. Its not about probability or what "should" happen.

and if not then do the best you can. Its not always about the stats.

I'll do the best I can with any stats. My current character is a 4th level psion with Str 9, Dex 9, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 9, Chr 12. In my opinion, stats are a lot less important than the player's raw cunning (which has never been satisfactorily reproduced as a character ability), but that is beside the point.

I get very few opportunities as a player (I mainly DM); why should I play a crap character when my luckier colleagues regularly roll at least two scores of 17+.

 

[Crothian]

If you would do that, then you are my hero (even more than you are already).

I found a way long ago to just have fun with the group I play with. I just adjust my style of gaming and expectations to match the people I game with. Power gamers, mounty haulers, drama acotrs, doesn't matter I have fun with them. But if there ever was an issue that came up that I couldn't get behind I'd walk out on a group. I know dozens of local gamers and I am lucky enough to have never been in need of a group.

But I just got to ask, why am I being called a hero?

 

[KenM]

Since the DM already allowed ther character. I would come up with a BBEG we equially uber stats to go toe to toe with the character to take him out.

For my games I use 4D6 drop lowest rolled IN FRONT OF ME. I have them roll 10 times instead of 6. They can take 6 of those and put them where they want. I have them roll 10 becuase IMO the PC's are larger then life heros and they're stats should reflect that they are better then most people.

 

[Dalprin]

Originally Posted by FreeTheSlaves
These are both examples of disastrous 'advice' to be giving; in both examples it is a case of passive-aggressiveness which will easily be perceived as unfair & lead to further conflict. I cannot imagine either being successful unless your definition of success is to wreck the gaming harmony.

I think you have have misunderstood my intent. My advice is not to passive-agressively punish a player. If I wanted to do that I would have suggested throwing a bunch of wraiths at the 1st level character. I simply made a suggestion to challenge the characters equally. It is no more fair or unfair than a player being so lucky in his ability score rolling that he easily outshines all the other players. By the DM choosing not to ask his player to adjust his scores, his options are limited. Either let the game progress and have one player dominate every session or up the encounter challenge ratings and risk killing off the other characters to accomedate one player's Onan the Barbarian.

You can't use such a system with mature adults because mature adults, by definition, cannot act is such a way to need such a system.

So... uh... you're saying that if I'm DMing someone whom I am 100% sure is cheating that I should smile and do nothing because the player is immature and won't have fun if I take into account his cheating? Uhh... so tell me. Why is the DM there? :\:\

THis is not a problem with point buy. This is a problem with unorginal players.

Crothian. I believe you are I are actually in agreement here. We just came to the same conclusion from different angles. My point is that point buy can hinder creativity because most players are trying to put the most advantageous scores in the needed abilities and leaving enough points so their other stats don't suffer. This will lead to the near-same ability scores in each character of the same class. Nobody who is into the game to play the most effective character wants to play a fighter with a strength score of 9 when they could have a 15 or 16.

Someone who is more into role playing might like the challenge of playing the lower strength fighter. Particularly if the DM is willing to bring in more challenges that do not require combat.

However, my experience has shown that players want effective characters.