ability roll cheating

[TheGM]

Wow, I can't believe the number of point-buy suggestions flying here. I hate point-buy, it takes the joy out of getting a "special" character.

There are servers out there that will allow players to roll and have the results emailed to you and themselves. Problem solved, no point-buy. I have players that live by it.

They can roll when ever they want, and I get the peace of mind to know what the raw scores came up.

Technology is our friend.

 

[delericho]

I like your arguments, but why?

If I want to play an archer cleric, and my minimum ability score requirements are modest, why can't I have them even if my rolls fall short?

Because the group agreed to use random-roll. Under this system, it's entirely possible to have stats that don't match up with what you want. If, instead, you're going to use as many rerolls as are needed to generate the stats you want, you're not using random roll - you're almost choosing the stats, and disguising it as random-roll. (I say almost because what you're actually doing is choosing your stats, but accepting that you might do better.)

My cheating character had the lowest ability scores in a party of 6 (none of them rolled in front of the DM).

Just out of interest: how many of the other characters do you know were created without rerolls?

I find the notion of a group using random-rolls where the stats are generated in private frankly mind-boggling. Believe me, I can 'roll' any combination of stats I like that way. Might as well just pick the stats.

If I want to choose the character, then roll the dice, is the DM really entitled to say that the dice are what is important and I need to base my character concept on the result?

I don't believe so. Of course, I favour point-buy strongly, so perhaps am not the best person to comment.

The thing is, I don't accept that view that the DM should dictate a stat generation method to the group from on-high. There really should be some sort of discussion and compromise. (Of course, the DM is free to say "I'm using 22-point buy for this campaign", and if no-one objects then that's fair enough. But if there are objections, there should be room for discussion.) That being the case, an objection that the system has given a bad character is not particularly valid - if you agree to a particular system, you should agree with the consequences of that decision, IMO.

On the particular question of the archer cleric, which I didn't address directly in my previous reply, I'll say this: although the stat requirements you set were not unreasonable, it is certainly possible to build a viable, or even good, archer cleric without meeting them. With the elf's Dex bonus, you only really need to roll one 14+ and one 12+ to get the two 'key' attributes to good levels. Although it would hurt, it is then possible to build a character with a below average score in any of the other attributes. It may not be what you wanted, and not what you'd do in the ideal world, but it is a workable option. And, in a 'pure' random-roll system, it may well be necessary.

Not that I'm necessarily an advocate of 'pure' random-roll systems. I do, however, believe the group should agree to a stat generation system and then stick to it, and that includes not rerolling except as agreed beforehand.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

So... uh... you're saying that if I'm DMing someone whom I am 100% sure is cheating that I should smile and do nothing because the player is immature and won't have fun if I take into account his cheating? Uhh... so tell me. Why is the DM there? :\:\

No, I suggest immediately ceasing to play with a cheat, unless you can handle their cheating. Don't bother to try to reform them, don't bother to try to punish them, don't bother to try to play with a cheat. They will suck out all the enjoyment there is an leave you an exhausted & burned out dm.

Ditch their immature gaming company - it really is worth it.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Wow, I can't believe the number of point-buy suggestions flying here. I hate point-buy, it takes the joy out of getting a "special" character.

There are servers out there that will allow players to roll and have the results emailed to you and themselves. Problem solved, no point-buy. I have players that live by it.

They can roll when ever they want, and I get the peace of mind to know what the raw scores came up.

Technology is our friend.

Just so long as the roller can handle any legal result. The problems fly & systems crash when the roller, pursuing their "special" character cheats by getting away with illegal rerolls.

 

[MonsterMash]

Interesting topic.

On the topic of point buy...

I understand the desire to control the power of your player with point buy; but, doesn't this result in all the characters being near clones of every other character that shares the same class? This is one of the reasons I dislike point build systems like GURPS and Hero. Oh you're a fighter? I guess that means you have a 15 strength, 14 dexterity, 13 Constitution, etc... Give me the 4d6 drop the lowest and play with people I can trust system of generating ability scores any day of the week.

I've got to admit as both a player and DM I prefer the randomness of rolling, particularly as I started with the 3d6 in order method, so I was used to extreme randomness with some characters. I may be unusual in that I don't mind if another character has much better stats than mine (not actually an issue in the campaign I'm currently playing in), but I can see some players not liking it.

 

[Zulithe]

I never expected this thread to garner so many useful replies. Thanks everyone.

I'm pretty much convinced that all future character generation in my campaigns will be either
A) point buy. The number of points may vary depending on the campaign flavor as well as player input.
B) dice generation (again, method may vary), but only in my presence.

The suggested card dealing method is intriguing; I'll certainly use it with any player who finds my preferred methods unsatisfactory.

I've definitely come around to the point buy school of thought. Especially after reading Gorrstagg's post which really helped put it into perspective. I like the idea of all the PCs starting on even footing without the possible complication of under or overpowered PCs. In the past, I've had players tell me that it confuses them, but that's nothing I can't fix.

RE: arrays. I think they have their place, but I don't feel comfortable using them for player characters. It just seems too cookie-cutter to me. PB gives the same control and offers players more flexibility.

RE: secure ability generation via website with email notification. I like it, but there is the tiny problem of not every player having internet access. Yes, it's sad, isn't it? If I ever host an online campaign again (tried it once. but that's another thread) I'll DEFINITELY utilize such a resource.

Originally posted by Elf Witch:
I really think it is bad DMing to use your power as DM to go out of the way to kill a PC.

I tend to agree. I've done it in the past but my players are very savvy these days. I suspect they'd also take it personally. Besides, I don't like DMing just so I can boss my friends around and make them play by MY rules. From my view, I'm as much to blame as this player because I didn't catch it or correct it earlier. I'd prefer a better compromise. Sure, there's a part of me who likes the idea of purposefully going out of my way to kill the character with some uber baddie, but for the most part I've outgrown that.

Ellie_the_Elf: loved the story! True, the logic was totally warped but I can understand where he is coming from.

from Man in the Funny Hat:
If you DON'T disallow this character you do a disservice to EVERYONE

You're right. When I started this thread, I was weighing rather to let it slide. But only for THIS ONE game, then redoubling my efforts to make sure it never happens again. I've since changed my mind. I am not demonizing this player. He is a good player (as well as a good friend) who I enjoy gaming with. I just wish he would take the rules more seriously.

ThoughtBubble: I think your advice would work well with this player. I'll explain why. In a past campaign (not ran by me) we had a metagame disagreement. Why? Well, the best I can work out, I was outshining the other players (who were all much less experienced) with my Rogue, who stole a magic item from a shopkeeper. I also single-handedly solved the dungeon's hardest puzzle. He was not pleased and felt I was hogging the spotlight. To be short, after the game was finished for the night I decided not to continue playing with that group anymore. It was a learning experience for me and I've since tried hard to keep the other players' enjoyment of the game at the forefront of my mind alongside (not behind) my own. Thankfully it is all water under the bridge and we get along perfect. But still there is a thought lingering that I might trigger a similar spat and I want to avoid it. I hope that makes sense.


I've read every reply, wish I could comment more but this reply is already getting long.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Can't help you here. This is one of the many reasons I enjoy using things like point buy systems or pre-arranged stats as it avoids the whole issues of fudging the dice rolls for character creation.

In the past we used to use a random roller from the old computer games that generated the characters for games like Hillsfar and take the best of one of ten or something but we've generally found that point buy avoids all the finger pointing.

 

[orsal]

I've got to admit as both a player and DM I prefer the randomness of rolling, particularly as I started with the 3d6 in order method, so I was used to extreme randomness with some characters. I may be unusual in that I don't mind if another character has much better stats than mine (not actually an issue in the campaign I'm currently playing in), but I can see some players not liking it.

I'm with you completely on that. For me, another factor is that my character concepts follow the ability scores, while it seems the other way around for most people here. I don't get a lot of interesting ideas from tabula rasa. Give me the ability scores, so I know the character's strengths and weaknesses, and I'll build ideas on that. To me fitting a character to prescribed abilities is part of the game.

 

[Crothian]

Wow, I can't believe the number of point-buy suggestions flying here. I hate point-buy, it takes the joy out of getting a "special" character.

Players can make special characters with any method. Stats don't make a character special, the player does.

 

[Quasqueton]

I hate point-buy, it takes the joy out of getting a "special" character.

Please define "special character".

* * *

I stopped letting Players roll their stats unsupervised many years ago. My best friend, a guy I trusted completely, brought in a character with very high stats (don't remember the specifics). I allowed it in without question. Unfortunately, that character died in the first adventure due to dumb stunts. Later, the Player told me he had used d8s instead of d6s to roll up that character. From then on, in my AD&D1 games, Players rolled their stats in front of me.

And since D&D3, I've used point buy - 28 points.

Quasqueton