D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[Rabulias]

Charisma in 5e seems to have taken on a bit of an "Essence" and/or "Spirit" attribute, IMO, along with the traditional "strength of personality."

 

[Bill Zebub]

Charisma in 5e seems to have taken on a bit of an "Essence" and/or "Spirit" attribute, IMO, along with the traditional "strength of personality."

Yes, very much so.

 

[Scott Christian]

Changelings get their bonus even if they are in human (or other innocuous) form. Which contradicts your theory.

Again, see generalities. You cannot use attributes on a case by case, specific by specific, instance. This is especially true for charisma. It's generalized.

No, the logic isn’t flawed. It’s a fine interpretation, and is mostly consistent with the published information. But it’s just one possible interpretation. That’s great if you prefer it, but you can’t (logically) present it as fact to support your argument

Not trying to win an argument, but present a side. This is why I said your field of vision is narrow. I am trying to show you a different vantage. Apparently, I may have done that.

All of which is why Charisma can only be an intrinsic but abstract “strength of character” and not anything on your list. Those outward signs might partially reflect Charisma, but they can’t cause it. You’ve got cart and horse backwards.

So attributes are purely cause ---> effect to you? The scar doesn't help intimidation, it is how the person carries the scar? If this is the case, then I am going to start a heated argument about strength, and how just the simple fact of longer limbs, generates immense power. And dexterity, how age greatly affects balance, etc.
You always make good points. And I appreciate them. But, the design of attributes is general. This is the reason so many players can give backgrounds or reasons as to why the stats are the way they are. They are generically general, in the most general sense. Charisma can come from a haircut if your player wants it to be. It can come from a race. It can come from being a novelty. It can come from being tall and intimidating. That is why attributes can be used for any skill. DM's choice. It is also why many of the skills that use the same attribute are incredibly different.
Don't pull the curtain back too far.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Charisma in 5e seems to have taken on a bit of an "Essence" and/or "Spirit" attribute, IMO, along with the traditional "strength of personality."

Which weirdly makes it overlap with the Wisdom.

 

[Scott Christian]

Charisma in 5e seems to have taken on a bit of an "Essence" and/or "Spirit" attribute, IMO, along with the traditional "strength of personality."

I agree, that is one part of its definition. Other parts tend to imply physical and mental attributes. It is general and ambiguous for a reason.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Again, see generalities. You cannot use attributes on a case by case, specific by specific, instance. This is especially true for charisma. It's generalized.

But you can use it in a specific, case-by-case way if you define Charisma as something like "spirit" or "essence". Or, at least, you can do so as well as you can with the other attributes. It's only if you believe it consists of how others perceive you that you need to do gymnastics with generalities.

Not trying to win an argument, but present a side. This is why I said your field of vision is narrow. I am trying to show you a different vantage. Apparently, I may have done that.

Ah, sorry to disappoint but I was not failing to perceive your interpretation, I was just rejecting that approach as a general explanation.

So attributes are purely cause ---> effect to you? The scar doesn't help intimidation, it is how the person carries the scar? If this is the case, then I am going to start a heated argument about strength, and how just the simple fact of longer limbs, generates immense power. And dexterity, how age greatly affects balance, etc.

You always make good points. And I appreciate them. But, the design of attributes is general. This is the reason so many players can give backgrounds or reasons as to why the stats are the way they are. They are generically general, in the most general sense. Charisma can come from a haircut if your player wants it to be. It can come from a race. It can come from being a novelty. It can come from being tall and intimidating. That is why attributes can be used for any skill. DM's choice. It is also why many of the skills that use the same attribute are incredibly different.
Don't pull the curtain back too far.

All we know for sure about the attributes is how they impact game mechanics. You are absolutely free to come up with any explanation you wish for your attributes (haircut, scar, etc.), but if those explanations aren't consistent with the mechanical effects then your explanation is flawed. I might say that my halfling has 20 strength because he was bitten by a radioactive spider. So he doesn't look strong, but he is. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how that explanation is contradicted by any game mechanics. But if I say my 20 strength is really just indicative of my expertise with my sword it fails to account for the fact that I can also carry a heavy load, swim/jump/climb well, etc.

If you start from the premise that my 20 Charisma is because I am strange and alien to some people, it fails to explain a number of mechanics. You are, of course, free to play that way (and just handwave away the inconsistencies...I do that all the time), but as a general explanation of 5e that the rest of us should accept, it is...lacking.

 

[Helldritch]

I do not have my 5e PHB, but I always thought that
Intelligence is the capacity to learn things fast and to retain knowledge and how to apply it to various problems.

Wisdom is the capacity to understand emotions, discern motivations and to learn from past mistakes.

Charisma is a measure of your strength of personality and it enables you to convince others that you're either an ally or treath. It never had anything to do with physical beauty or ugliness.

 

[Bill Zebub]

.

Charisma is a measure of your strength of personality and it enables you to convince others that you're either an ally or treath. It never had anything to do with physical beauty or ugliness.

This is what I think, too. Although there needs to be some sort of mystical/magical/spiritual aspect to it, for class abilities and spell castling to make sense.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Charisma in 5e seems to have taken on a bit of an "Essence" and/or "Spirit" attribute, IMO, along with the traditional "strength of personality."

I really have been very tempted to break wisdom in half, give the spiritual strength part to charisma and keep the awareness aspect as separate. It just makes a lot of sense with how close charisma is with strong spirits.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Wisdom is the capacity to understand emotions, discern motivations and to learn from past mistakes.

I see it, but I would like to seperate being able to read emotions and being able to shift how people feel and empathize with them. I've known plenty of people who are very kind and always help others feel good, but have had a hard time realizing that someone was struggling. Meanwhile, I also know a few people who can always tell, but don't really care about the emotions of others.

Charisma is a measure of your strength of personality and it enables you to convince others that you're either an ally or treath. It never had anything to do with physical beauty or ugliness.

Nitpick and point of order, I do believe that Charisma evolved from Comeliness (I don't know if they existed side by side or if comeliness was renamed as it expanded) but there was a time where it had almost everything to do with physical beauty. It doesn't anymore, and it was a short period, but the connection did exist in the past.