D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

[Scott Christian]

Look, I want to believe it, but I've never met players like you. Perhaps you can show us examples of characters that you have really played that show that you made that kind of choice ?

I alluded to this earlier. (Not calling you out Bill.) But how many characters has anyone here played for a campaign or at least half a campaign? I am at a mere six (8 if you count the one that retired mid campaign and the one that died). I feel like that is a lot.

In those characters I have explored the against type, with a wood elf barbarian. And I discovered the trade off for a low strength, great movement. I have played another against type, a half-orc wizard. For the first two sessions I didn't even cast a spell. Everyone thought I was a fighter. Then feather fall came in real handy! It was a great roleplaying experience. (There were other great RP moments with him as well.) I have also played the min/max game, creating a drow that was an arcane trickster. He was, far and away, the spotlight stealer of the table because he was good at almost everything. Then I played a half-elf warlock. A synergistic race/class combo. But I limited myself and never took a spell that did damage. He drew quite a bit of fire from enemies, so he was still helpful on the battlefield. And there were others.

This variety, in my opinion, has helped me understand the impact of the rules on character creation because I played them and spent time with them.

My point to all this is a speak from experience. I am sure it will differ from the others, but that is one way we learn.

 

[Bill Zebub]

It's just that you keep making claims that seem contradictory or at least not applying the same logic consistently. Like if you're fine with playing monk even though this makes your character not as powerful as they could be, why are you not similarly fine with playing a dwarf rogue with dex 15?

Because maybe I was being honest when I said it wasn't about comparing my character to other people's characters?

To elaborate on that, it has to do what I was saying earlier, that it's not that a 16 is "needed" in absolute sense, but rather it's the weakness of what you could get if you give up the 16.

Thus, if I weigh some additional DPR (based on white room theorycrafting) of playing a fully optimized fighter against this character concept I have for a kensai monk...with totally different mechanics and feel...the fun of the monk outweighs the dpr.

But when I'm choosing a race, I weigh the +1 to all my rolls (and damage) against...what? The chance to play a 'human in a funny hat'? Look, I love creating a persona and roleplaying my character, but the choice of race just doesn't affect that very much. I just don't see very compelling reasons to choose one race over another, because I can create a fun character to roleplay of any race.

 

[Maxperson]

Then show me some of your characters, that have actually seen play. Call me St Thomas if you want...



Again, show me some characters.

I mostly DM, so I've only played twice. My first character was a variant human paladin. Not the top choice for paladin, even though I did put my two +1s as a variant human in str and cha. I did not use a two handed weapon, but instead went longsword and shield. Without ever looking up what is best for paladins, I chose Sentinal for roleplaying purposes as my feat in order to protect my comrades.

My second character was a Bladesinger, so my race was picked for me. Had to be an elf. I rolled exceptionally well, ending up with a 13 strength, 20 dexterity, 14 constitution, 17 intelligence, 12 wisdom and 11 charisma at level 1. At some point one of my feats raised my int to 18. By level 12 it hadn't gone any higher. There was no point in going to 20. My feats were Keen Mind, Telepathic, and Combat Casting. I did pick high elf for the intelligence bonus, but note how my feats are suboptimal for a power gamer.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Because maybe I was being honest when I said it wasn't about comparing my character to other people's characters?

What I feel perplexing is why you feel compelled to optimise only this one thing, and even that only to the +3 modifier and not to +4 modifier that you could get. That seems bizarrely specific to me.

 

[Bill Zebub]

(Ironically, I suppose, I'm agreeing with everybody who says that the races just aren't sufficiently differentiated.)

 

[Bill Zebub]

What I feel perplexing is why you feel compelled to optimise only this one thing, and even that only to the +3 modifier and not to +4 modifier that you could get. That seems bizarrely specific to me.

Hopefully I answered that (at least somewhat) with my subsequent edits.

It is all about the trade-offs.

(Also, I haven't started any new characters since Tasha's, so no chance to try out the 18 thing yet. Although I probably won't just because I'm not a fan of those a la carte "create your own" options.)

 

[Lyxen]

I mostly DM, so I've only played twice. My first character was a variant human paladin. Not the top choice for paladin, even though I did put my two +1s as a variant human in str and cha.

Let's examine that claim that it's not the top choice for paladin. I have looked at the four guides in DDB, and they ALL recommend the variant human as one of the best races for a paladin (three are Sky Blue, one blue)...

My second character was a Bladesinger, so my race was picked for me. Had to be an elf. I rolled exceptionally well, ending up with a 13 strength, 20 dexterity, 14 constitution, 17 intelligence, 12 wisdom and 11 charisma at level 1. At some point one of my feats raised my int to 18. By level 12 it hadn't gone any higher. There was no point in going to 20. My feats were Keen Mind, Telepathic, and Combat Casting. I did pick high elf for the intelligence bonus, but note how my feats are suboptimal for a power gamer.

And then, curiously, it was only a few posts ago that someone explained that Bladesinger is the most OP class around, and it's certainly in the very top tier.

Honestly guys, who do you think you are speaking with ? We happen to know the game at least as well as you do, you know...

 

[Bill Zebub]

What I'm trying to counteract is that narrative of @Lyxen's that if you're the sort of person that tries to always have a high primary attribute, you will also be unable to resist any and every form of optimization. (And that you probably are just doing what the guides tell you to do, anyway. I mean, really? WTF?)

 

[Scott Christian]

I guess I need clarification: does "necessary for roleplaying during character creation" mean:

A) "It is necessary for me; it just doesn't feel right otherwise."
B) "It is necessary for other/new players, who otherwise might not have the correct image in mind."

If it's A then, ok, I get it and we're cool. (This is what I thought we resolved many pages ago.)

If it's B...then I strongly disagree. (This is what I've been pushing back against these last few posts.)

I would say it is mostly A.

But I disagree with your phrasing that is bolded. It is not about being correct. It is about establishing a norm that allows new players to understand how archetypes, themes, motifs, etc. impact the mechanics of the game.

I guess the next logical question is: how many of you come to the table without a character already in mind?

 

[Bill Zebub]

I would say it is mostly A.

But I disagree with your phrasing that is bolded. It is not about being correct. It is about establishing a norm that allows new players to understand how archetypes, themes, motifs, etc. impact the mechanics of the game.

Ok, fair enough on that point. I worded that poorly. I still disagree that it has the effect you describe, or that it is needed, but I acknowledge the effect you believe it has.

I guess the next logical question is: how many of you come to the table without a character already in mind?

It varies. I usually have a quiver of ideas I've been wanting to try, and when I get to session 0 I say, "Ok, what are the rest of you playing" and try to do something different than everybody else. Sometimes one of my ideas fits in well, and sometimes I need to come up with something on the fly. In that case I'll just leap in with no idea who this character is and what they are like, and let that emerge/evolve as the game progresses.