D&D 5E Absorb Elements, Shield Master, and Reactions for Saves

[Mistwell]

Im not misunderstanding anything. You are trying to use wording to cheat. The action economy is a reaction, you have to choose the reaction before you roll the dice. I don't care what the flavor text says, because that's all it is. The action economy says one reaction per round. If you are DMing, and you want you players to abuse this, fine run your games as you see fit. But otherwise, you can't do both, you have to choose before the dice roll.

Come on man, nobody is "cheating" because they disagree with your view. They're using the text as written. They happen to be correct, but even if you disagree they're not cheating because they disagree with your view. Nobody is trying to use two reactions.

You allowed to choose whatever you want to do until you roll dice. Once you decide to roll dice you're committed. If the shield master ability didn't have an action economy, sure you could do both

NOBODY IS TRYING TO DO BOTH. You're not understanding what they're saying. Read what they're saying once again. You're genuinely not understanding. Digging in will make it worse - just think it through. And yes, your last response tells everyone here you're not following the conversation. You think they're trying to do something they are definitely not trying to do.

 

[Umbran]

Wrong, you either haven't read the Player's Handbook, and don't know the rules of combat, or you're purposely trying to misinform people to cheat.

Mod Note:

Argument of the form "you are either ignorant or lying to disagree with me" is not actually an argument of logic - it is just flat insulting name-calling. How about you give a logical argument why they are wrong, instead of making this about who can bluster most?

 

[neogod22]

Come on man, nobody is "cheating" because they disagree with your view. They're using the text as written. They happen to be correct, but even if you disagree they're not cheating because they disagree with your view. Nobody is trying to use two reactions.



NOBODY IS TRYING TO DO BOTH. You're not understanding what they're saying. Read what they're saying once again. You're genuinely not understanding. Digging in will make it worse - just think it through. And yes, your last response tells everyone here you're not following the conversation. You think they're trying to do something they are definitely not trying to do.

You are trying to do both, because you're trying to use the result of the saving throw to determine which one you're going to use. Your argument is (a) triggers before damage, and (b) triggers after damage. What you're saying is "if I make my save then I'm going to use (a), if I fail I'll use (b)." That's exactly using both reactions which is not allowed. If absorb elements was in the Player's Handbook, they probably would've changed the trigger so this eploit wouldn't even exist. This is almost as stupid of an exploit as someone attempting to counter a counter-spell. If you really don't think it's cheating, ask the question in Sage Advise, try it in League Play, and ask your DM to use those expoits against the PCs.

 

[Mistwell]

You are trying to do both, because you're trying to use the result of the saving throw to determine which one you're going to use

Both REQUIRE a result from a saving throw before you're allowed to choose to use them. One says, " if you succeed on the saving throw" so you MUST have already made the save to use it. The other says when you take that kind of "damage" which MUST come only after a saving throw and not before. Neither may be used before making the saving throw. You have to use both after you've rolled the save. To argue you must use either before making a save would be to not be following the rules on either one.

Your argument is (a) triggers before damage, and (b) triggers after damage

Neither is triggers before damage. Both must trigger after trying to save.

What you're saying is "if I make my save then I'm going to use (a), if I fail I'll use (b)." That's exactly using both reactions which is not allowed.

No you're confusing a PLAYERS decision-making with a PC action. The decision is not the reaction. You only get one reaction - it's either one or the other but not both. The decision is just a playing thinking about it and not a rule at all.

If absorb elements was in the Player's Handbook, they probably would've changed the trigger so this eploit wouldn't even exist.

It's not an exploit. It's working as intended. You're spending precious resources to put yourself in that position. Those are the intended costs the designers put in the game. If you choose to invest in both that's perfectly fine because it means you lose the opportunity to choose a different feat and spell. You're calling it an exploit because apparently you don't like it for some reason - I am not even sure why as it's not overpowered at all.

This is almost as stupid of an exploit as someone attempting to counter a counter-spell. If you really don't think it's cheating, ask the question in Sage Advise, try it in League Play, and ask your DM to use those expoits against the PCs.

Literally everyone in this thread disagrees with your view. You're the only outlier. So YOU ask Sage Advice - the rest of us are comfortable with how it works. And of course I'd be fine if a DM uses this combination against players. I wouldn't care for a moment. I don't know why you think it's so powerful.

 

[ad_hoc]

Shield Master: You can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on your Saving Throw.

Absorb Elements: 1 reaction which you take when you take ____ damage

In both cases the reaction is taken after the Saving Throw. In the first case it is taken if the Saving Throw was successful, in the second it is taken once damage is applied.

These are just like the spell Shield. You react after the triggering event. Then their effect can retroactively influence the event.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So if a bonus action like shield bash says "you can do it as a bonus action when you make a melee attack" and you use the bonus action before you make the melee attack, by your logic, does this mean you still have the opportunity to cast a spell instead based off the result if the shield bash?

Strawman. No one is talking about Bonus Actions. Bonus Actions use the rules for Bonus Actions, Reactions use the rules for Reactions.

Wrong, you either haven't read the Player's Handbook, and don't know the rules of combat, or you're purposely trying to misinform people to cheat.

No, I suspect it is you who haven't read the Player's Handbook: "A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind" -PHB p190.

It might also be useful for you to look at the text under the Ready action (PHB p193): "When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger".

 

[TwoSix]

This is wrong, you habe to make the decision to cast the spell before the save. This is a reaction. You have to choose one or the other. If it were an ongoing effect like fire shield, sure you can use shield master, and of thst fails you still have resistance. With 2 different reactions, it's one or the other, not both.

Flat wrong. There's no verbiage in the rules as to what's allowable as an reaction trigger. It can be literally anything. It's perfectly allowable to use a reaction AFTER a triggering save, or a triggering damage event, if that's what the reaction trigger specifies. The player isn't using the reaction to MAKE the save, the save is being forced on him. So he's perfectly in his rights, indeed, he HAS to wait for the result of the save, and then choose a reaction that's predicated on the results. If the save is successful, then Shield Master can apply. Or, he could use Absorb Elements as a legal reaction, but it would be the inferior choice (from a damage mitigation standpoint). If the save is unsuccessful, he can then use Absorb Elements to halve the damage.

By your logic, you'd have to choose to cast hellish rebuke before seeing if the attack actually hit you.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

but it would be the inferior choice

Possibly not.

If the EK was battling a trio of fireballing sorcerers, if he succeeds on his save vs the first fireball he could use Shield Master to take zero damage, but then would be unable to use absorb elements (doubly, since he has used his reaction and hasn't taken damage). This would leave him vulnerable to the second and third fireball. He might be better off choosing to forgo using Shield Master and letting some of the damage through. He could then use Absorb Elements (taking 1/4 damage). This would leave him fire resistant to the subsequent incoming fireballs.

 

[RSIxidor]

So if a bonus action like shield bash says "you can do it as a bonus action when you make a melee attack" and you use the bonus action before you make the melee attack, by your logic, does this mean you still have the opportunity to cast a spell instead based off the result if the shield bash?

No, and that's not at all similar to what we're talking about, either.

Focus on the triggers for each of these two reactions as that is extremely important here.

You can use one reaction a turn, and whether you use that reaction is determined whenever a trigger for a reaction you have available occurs. If you don't use it for one trigger, it can later be used for another trigger.

Consider this scenario: You have two hostile creatures adjacent to you. One of them moves away from you. This presents the trigger for an opportunity attack. If you choose not to take an opportunity attack against this creature, you still have your reaction available. Then the second creature moves away from you. This presents the trigger for an opportunity attack. Since you didn't use the reaction when the first creature moved away, the first time a trigger was presented, you can still use it now. You could still choose not to use your reaction now to have it available for another effect. If you do use it now, you can't use it on a later effect.

The scenario in OP is similar but a little different as there is a branching decision tree, rather than a linear decision tree.

You make a dexterity saving throw and the effect casing the saving throw deals elemental damage, there are two significant branches that are separate from each other: succeed or fail on the saving throw.
1. You succeed the dexterity saving throw.
a. This presents the trigger for the reaction of shield master's third benefit.
b. If you choose to use your reaction for shield master, you take no damage.
c. If you choose to not use your reaction for shield master, you still have your
reaction available.
i. Since you didn't use shield master, you take half damage from the effect.
ii. This presents the trigger to cast absorb elements.
iii. If you choose to use your reaction for absorb elements, you gain resistance to the
triggering damage.
iv. If you choose not to use your reaction for absorb elements, you still have your reaction available.
2. You fail the dexterity saving throw.
a. You take elemental damage.
b. This presents the trigger for casting absorb elements as a reaction.
c. If you choose to use your reaction for absorb elements, you gain resistance to the triggering damage.
d. If you choose not to use your reaction for absorb elements, you still have your reaction available.

 

[TwoSix]

Possibly not.

If the EK was battling a trio of fireballing sorcerers, if he succeeds on his save vs the first fireball he could use Shield Master to take zero damage, but then would be unable to use absorb elements (doubly, since he has used his reaction and hasn't taken damage). This would leave him vulnerable to the second and third fireball. He might be better off choosing to forgo using Shield Master and letting some of the damage through. He could then use Absorb Elements (taking 1/4 damage). This would leave him fire resistant to the subsequent incoming fireballs.

To clarify, it would be the inferior choice in the exact situation as was described (and again, only from a damage mitigation standpoint, there may be relevance to charging up the damage bonus for Absorb Elements). I certainly agree that other possible sources of fire damage in the rest of the round may make Absorb Elements a superior choice, depending on the amount of damage, chance of hit, etc. All the stuff you have to weigh to make good tactical decisions in 5e.