5E Absorb Elements, Shield Master, and Reactions for Saves

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
I will challenge this. Even though you cant cast spells, for Counter-spell, you only need to point. Please make a video of you trying to out point your friend when you when you see him attempting it to point at you while you're attempting to do something else. I can tell you it's a physical impossibility, but try and prove me wrong without rigging thr experiment.
You told us that Countering a Counterspell is an "exploit" and "cheating" and not RAW as another example of why we're all wrong on our reading of reactions and these specific examples. You asked us to ask Sage Advice even though you're the only one arguing your side of it.

When I produce a sage advice that explicitly proves your position incorrect on your extra example, that you can, in fact, counterspell a counterspell, your counter-argument is to resort to real-world reaction times and physical impossibilities?

Talk about moving goal-posts. You've jumped to an entirely different field with that.

Just because I can't do it, doesn't mean that characters in the D&D worlds suffused with magic can't do it.

Honestly, given that you're the only one arguing for your case, YOU should be the one with Sage Advices or quotes from texts that support your position instead of us all giving you the texts and such. Especially since you seem inclined to ignore them when we do post them because... reasons? shrug
 
It's also like the Shield Spell. Which States when attacked, you get to choose to up your armor class. It can be after the roll but before the results. You're not supoosed to know if the shield spell stops the hit or not. It's supposed to be a gamble, do I use a spell slot to attempt to prevent the hit, or just take the results of the dice?
This is flat out wrong. Shield can only be cast if an attack hits. Depending on the table and DM, you may not know if the +5 will turn the hit into a miss, but you always know that the initial attack is a hit before you cast it.
I'm not going to argue counterspell, since that isn't what this topic is about. (And because you're demonstrably wrong). But you have to wait for the triggers before declaring what reaction you are doing. You can't declare to use Shield Master before the saving throw, because nothing has happened yet to allow you to use it. Neither of these things are in any way changing the result of the saving throw, so it doesn't interfere with the roll. And both need the result of the saving throw in order to trigger.
 

the Jester

Legend
It's also like the Shield Spell. Which States when attacked, you get to choose to up your armor class. It can be after the roll but before the results. You're not supoosed to know if the shield spell stops the hit or not. It's supposed to be a gamble, do I use a spell slot to attempt to prevent the hit, or just take the results of the dice?
That's totally wrong. Shield is a reaction you take when an attack hits you. Re-read your PH.
 

UngeheuerLich

Adventurer
Technically it is allowed.
Question is if you use a house rule, that you may not raise a shield and cast a spell simultaneousy. I can see arguments to disallow the use of both and ask the players to anounce their intend before the roll.
 

Ashrym

Hero
No one needs to ask Sage Advice anything, but some of you might want to read it. ;)

"Can you cast a reaction spell on your turn? You sure can! Here’s a common way for it to happen: Cornelius the wizard is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell on him. Cornelius also has counterspell prepared, so he uses his reaction to cast it and break his foe’s counterspell before it can stop fireball."
 

Ashrym

Hero
@neogod22 All reactions are specific to a trigger. They are specific to the timing of that trigger and these types of questions have come up in sage advice before. The timing of the trigger definitely impacts when a reaction can take place.
 

Mistwell

Legend
I get what you're saying, all I'm saying is you should declare your intent before you roll dice.
You can't. I mean I suppose you can say whatever you want, but neither effect can be used prior to rolling the dice so you're talking a house rule there. You literally are not allowed to use either feature at the point you're insisting you must declare your use of the feature.

The examples you stated, you have to declare intent before rolling. Nothing is automatic.
When a creature leaves your threatened space you do not have to declare intent prior to the DM saying they're leaving your threatened space. You declare when the trigger happens (they're leaving) and not before. That is an example he gave. You never declare intent prior to a trigger. I think you might be confusing this with a Readied Action - the only time you do declare prior to a trigger.

If a DM gets ready to moce a creature away from you, they usually ask, "are you making an opportunity attack?" If you roll the dice and miss, you can't take it back.
Ah, you're confused about the trigger. The trigger is not the rolling of the dice - that's the action (reaction)you're taking, not the thing which triggered that action. The trigger IS the DM saying "they are moving away from you" because the movement is the trigger, not the dice roll.

In the instance of absorb elements and shield master, the triggers both come after the dice are rolled, not before. The trigger in this instance IS the dice being rolled, unlike the opportunity attack which is the movement and not the dice.

That's the something I'm saying about using Shield Master and Absorb Elements. I get on activates if you take damage, and the other activates if you make your save. I've even said, you're free to change your mind before you roll dice, but once you're about to roll, you need to declare intent.
You can't. Or rather, that's not how the rule is stated. You're not supposed to declare intent on a reaction until after a triggering opportunity, other than with a readied action.

It's also like the Shield Spell. Which States when attacked, you get to choose to up your armor class. It can be after the roll but before the results. You're not supoosed to know if the shield spell stops the hit or not. It's supposed to be a gamble, do I use a spell slot to attempt to prevent the hit, or just take the results of the dice?
But the shield spell is only tiggered by a roll. You specifically CAN'T declare/cast prior to the roll. It's right there in the spell description. Why are you using a different standard for Absorb Elements and Shield Master than the one you're using for the Shield spell? It makes no sense - you JUST proved the point you're arguing against, that you declare after a roll!
 

ad_hoc

Hero
I get what you're saying, all I'm saying is you should declare your intent before you roll dice. The examples you stated, you have to declare intent before rolling. Nothing is automatic. If a DM gets ready to moce a creature away from you, they usually ask, "are you making an opportunity attack?" If you roll the dice and miss, you can't take it back. That's the something I'm saying about using Shield Master and Absorb Elements. I get on activates if you take damage, and the other activates if you make your save. I've even said, you're free to change your mind before you roll dice, but once you're about to roll, you need to declare intent. It's also like the Shield Spell. Which States when attacked, you get to choose to up your armor class. It can be after the roll but before the results. You're not supoosed to know if the shield spell stops the hit or not. It's supposed to be a gamble, do I use a spell slot to attempt to prevent the hit, or just take the results of the dice?
There is no 'intent' step. You are doing the thing or you are not.
 

neogod22

Explorer
You can't. I mean I suppose you can say whatever you want, but neither effect can be used prior to rolling the dice so you're talking a house rule there. You literally are not allowed to use either feature at the point you're insisting you must declare your use of the feature.



When a creature leaves your threatened space you do not have to declare intent prior to the DM saying they're leaving your threatened space. You declare when the trigger happens (they're leaving) and not before. That is an example he gave. You never declare intent prior to a trigger. I think you might be confusing this with a Readied Action - the only time you do declare prior to a trigger.



Ah, you're confused about the trigger. The trigger is not the rolling of the dice - that's the action (reaction)you're taking, not the thing which triggered that action. The trigger IS the DM saying "they are moving away from you" because the movement is the trigger, not the dice roll.

In the instance of absorb elements and shield master, the triggers both come after the dice are rolled, not before. The trigger in this instance IS the dice being rolled, unlike the opportunity attack which is the movement and not the dice.



You can't. Or rather, that's not how the rule is stated. You're not supposed to declare intent on a reaction until after a triggering opportunity, other than with a readied action.



But the shield spell is only tiggered by a roll. You specifically CAN'T declare/cast prior to the roll. It's right there in the spell description. Why are you using a different standard for Absorb Elements and Shield Master than the one you're using for the Shield spell? It makes no sense - you JUST proved the point you're arguing against, that you declare after a roll!
Wow a lot of words and you said nothing to actually counter my point. You just tried rewording it. Of the trigger is for an OA is "leave your threatened space," what did I say was wrong? If the trigger for shield is "when attacked," again, what was wrong with what I said, because you literally just said the same thing.
 

RSIxidor

Explorer
Wow a lot of words and you said nothing to actually counter my point. You just tried rewording it. Of the trigger is for an OA is "leave your threatened space," what did I say was wrong? If the trigger for shield is "when attacked," again, what was wrong with what I said, because you literally just said the same thing.
The trigger for Shield is "when you are hit by an attack or targeted by the magic missile spell." Something you can't possibly know until the attacker has already announced the result of the roll with its modifiers added.

You seem to be willfully ignoring or misstating the triggers for all of these reactions and arguing for how you think it should work, not what the words in the game actually say about how it works.
 

5ekyu

Adventurer
Wow a lot of words and you said nothing to actually counter my point. You just tried rewording it. Of the trigger is for an OA is "leave your threatened space," what did I say was wrong? If the trigger for shield is "when attacked," again, what was wrong with what I said, because you literally just said the same thing.
I think after many many posts back and forth, all I will say is you seem to have and be very very attached to dome fifferdnt PHB thsn I use and others here may use. If that PHB and whatever its rules are working for you, that's great.

But it's not the one commonly in play.
 

Mistwell

Legend
Wow a lot of words and you said nothing to actually counter my point.
I did. You're just ignoring it. Which isn't persuasive.

You just tried rewording it. Of the trigger is for an OA is "leave your threatened space," what did I say was wrong? If the trigger for shield is "when attacked," again, what was wrong with what I said, because you literally just said the same thing.
Which is why I said you're ignoring my point. Yes, I did say the same thing - and demonstrated the standard you're using for Shield Master and Absorb Elements differs from the standard you're using for OAs, and asked why. To which you responded "you didn't counter my point" without answering the question.

Except for readied actions, all the reactions we've mentioned come after the trigger and not before. You never declare intent prior to the trigger. So why are you insisting on declaring intent prior to the trigger for absorb elements and shield mastery, but not for other reactions? That's the question you're ignoring.
 

the Jester

Legend
Wow a lot of words and you said nothing to actually counter my point. You just tried rewording it. Of the trigger is for an OA is "leave your threatened space," what did I say was wrong? If the trigger for shield is "when attacked," again, what was wrong with what I said, because you literally just said the same thing.
Are you even reading peoples' replies? Or the rules you're referencing? The trigger for shield, as has been stated OVER AND OVER AGAIN in this thread by multiple posters now, is being hit by an attack, not being attacked.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Folks, there seems to be consensus on how triggers and reactions work except for one person who is arguing things blatantly not part of the rules, be it requirements to declare intent before the game would allow a trigger as a possibility, real-life time to point at someone, or whatever.

I know we all have that "someone on the internet is wrong!" urge to correct them, but we can let it be. We've answered this question. Don't feed the trolls.
 

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