Abstract versus concrete in games (or, why rules-light systems suck)

[der_kluge]

I think Speaks with Stone also speaks with good advice, here.

The dice yield a result. How you explain that result in C&C is largely up to you. "Strength" can represent speed as easily as it can represent strength. It can represent magical aptitude, size, endurance, accuracy, or anything else as well.

Yes, but strength adds to damage dice, dexterity does not. So, it's impossible to be a dex-based fighter in C&C, when I can't compensate for the lack of strength.

In other words, I should be able to make an 18 dex fighter, and an 18 str fighter and they should both die 50% of the time in a fight against the other. As it is, the 18 dex fighter is at a disadvantage because I'm not adding strength to my damage dice. Oh sure, I could dual-wield, but then so can the str fighter. Weapon finesse is out because in C&C core, there are no feats. At least this GM is allowing feats, so I've got that much covered.

 

[I'm A Banana]

As it is, the 18 dex fighter is at a disadvantage because I'm not adding strength to my damage dice. Oh sure, I could dual-wield, but then so can the str fighter. Weapon finesse is out because in C&C core, there are no feats. At least this GM is allowing feats, so I've got that much covered.

Put the 18 in Str.

Every time you attack, describe it as "a quick succession of stabs."

You need Dex why? Because of the term?

(admittedly, I'm not that familiar with the C&C system, but it sounds to me like Str does your work for you, just under a different name)

 

[Saeviomagy]

In C&C, Str is a primary attribute for fighters. That gives me good saves against constriction and paralysis (IIRC). There's nothing about my 19 year old female that would enable her to bust out of the talons of a giant hideous snake, or the claws of a giant dragon. That's a clear mechanical aspect of the system that violates what my character is.

You're really not trying here. The D&D skill 'escape artist' does precisely what you list, and it's dex based.

 

[der_kluge]

Put the 18 in Str.

Every time you attack, describe it as "a quick succession of stabs."

You need Dex why? Because of the term?

(admittedly, I'm not that familiar with the C&C system, but it sounds to me like Str does your work for you, just under a different name)

Ok, that's just silly. Isn't that making a character to fit the mechanics? Someone accused me of that earlier. Doing this would be a clear example of that.

No, what I need is a swashbuckler class. Armor restrictions, d8 hit dice, perhaps a sneak attack, perhaps an inate bonus to AC, dex as a primary attribute. C&C doesn't have that. I should write it up, and offer it to my GM.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Ok, that's just silly. Isn't that making a character to fit the mechanics? Someone accused me of that earlier. Doing this would be a clear example of that.

Yeah, but the mechanics are abstracted to such a degree that they're not really representing anything but what you say they represent.

No, what I need is a swashbuckler class. Armor restrictions, d8 hit dice, perhaps a sneak attack, perhaps an inate bonus to AC, dex as a primary attribute. C&C doesn't have that. I should write it up, and offer it to my GM.

Tis a better idea.

 

[Particle_Man]

And all fighters have strength as a primary attribute. Dex isn't an option.

1) Any fighter can have strength and dex together as Primes. Any human fighter can have strength and Dex and one other stat as primes.

2) Looks like your character would fit a different archtype. I suggest rogue, or assassin. they both have dex as a prime. Then you have lightly armored dude, doing extra damage in certain situations.

 

[Particle_Man]

In other words, I should be able to make an 18 dex fighter, and an 18 str fighter and they should both die 50% of the time in a fight against the other.

There is your problem. D&D and C&C reward high strength over all other stats, with the possible exception of con. You cannot get away from that without playing a different game entirely. The dex figther will lose because he is supposed to lose to the high str. fighter. That is how D&D (and C&C) are supposed to work. Conan kills D'Artagnan. Every time. Without exception.

 

[billd91]

In C&C, Str is a primary attribute for fighters. That gives me good saves against constriction and paralysis (IIRC). There's nothing about my 19 year old female that would enable her to bust out of the talons of a giant hideous snake, or the claws of a giant dragon. That's a clear mechanical aspect of the system that violates what my character is.

Ah, but being speed and quickness based, you could say that she quickly worms her way out of the grasp rather than pushes out of them by pure force.

 

[wingsandsword]

I think this is why I hate systems like ODAD and C&C so much,

You just summed up why I hate C&C and I really don't get the people who fawn over OD&D (although I can understand it has historic significance).

I like complexity, but not at the expense of fun and ease of play. I like simplicity, but not so much that it feels like the game is "dumbed down" or oversimplified.

C&C feels like it's oversimplified, a gutted and lobotomized version of d20. GURPS and HERO on the other hand, feel overcomplicated and burdensome that make the games more about accounting and paperwork than adventuring and heroics. d20 Modern and D&D 3.x feel about right, simplfying in some places and making it just detailed enough in others.

Which isn't to say that rules-light games don't have their place: I love Big Eyes, Small Mouth, but I see Anime as a good genre for rules-light. Medieval High Fantasy seems to be a place for a little more detail in my experience.

 

[the Jester]

Ah, I think here's the root of the problem.

In other words, I should be able to make an 18 dex fighter, and an 18 str fighter and they should both die 50% of the time in a fight against the other.

Why do you think this?