Abstract Wealth Systems - yes or no?
- Thread starter Jürgen Hubert
- Start date
DragonLancer
Hero
Terwox said:
Ditto.
arscott
First Post
I'd say the breakdown when buying starships and mecha are more a problem with the starship and mecha systems than with the wealth system. D20 Future was sketchy in this and several other respects.
I love wealth systems. I think it allows you to be more evocative in terms of the treasure with which you reward players while at the same time saving on most of the paperwork.
Instead of finding 40 platinum, 200 gold, and a couple of gems, you can find 40 gold bars stamped with the seal of the rechstagen emperor, 25 gold soverigns from the old kingdom, 147 royal crowns, 23 catalian peices of eight, a small jewelry box carved from teak and ebony, and a copper hay-penny. And all without worrying about the exchange rate between catalan and local coin, how valuable a teakwood is, or what to do with half a copper.
As for introducing the system, I have a suggestion:
-Start with a one-shot or short campaign with pre-generated characters who already have their major equipment and their wealth scores, but not a 10 foot pole or 50 feet or rope. That way, their first introduction to the wealth system is "it's under your wealth score, you get it for free". Introduce a need to obtain more expensive equipment that could reduce a hero's wealth bonus later in the game. And if they have an employer (and were smart enough to include an expenses clause in their contract), let them requisition equipment too. Giving free stuff to players is an excellent way of selling them on the rule. Only after introducting players to the process of character creation and initial wealth determination.
I love wealth systems. I think it allows you to be more evocative in terms of the treasure with which you reward players while at the same time saving on most of the paperwork.
Instead of finding 40 platinum, 200 gold, and a couple of gems, you can find 40 gold bars stamped with the seal of the rechstagen emperor, 25 gold soverigns from the old kingdom, 147 royal crowns, 23 catalian peices of eight, a small jewelry box carved from teak and ebony, and a copper hay-penny. And all without worrying about the exchange rate between catalan and local coin, how valuable a teakwood is, or what to do with half a copper.
As for introducing the system, I have a suggestion:
-Start with a one-shot or short campaign with pre-generated characters who already have their major equipment and their wealth scores, but not a 10 foot pole or 50 feet or rope. That way, their first introduction to the wealth system is "it's under your wealth score, you get it for free". Introduce a need to obtain more expensive equipment that could reduce a hero's wealth bonus later in the game. And if they have an employer (and were smart enough to include an expenses clause in their contract), let them requisition equipment too. Giving free stuff to players is an excellent way of selling them on the rule. Only after introducting players to the process of character creation and initial wealth determination.
Last edited:
Garnfellow
Explorer
I really enjoy abstract wealth. At one, early point in my DMing career, I made my players keep detailed records of every item and the associated encumbrance value, right down to the very last copper piece. (I think I may have even had a coin worth less than a copper . . . a lead coin.)
Oh, I had detailed tax tables and different currencies and exchange rates for all the different kingdoms in my world. I probably could have taught the IRS new and even more fiendish ways to siphon off excess funds.
And then one day it struck me: while I did get a kick out of making up all these creative details, and my players got some enjoyment out of having this little extra dollop of verisimilitude plopped on top of our game, in the final analysis that modest additional pleasure did not really justify all the additional book-keeping.
So I just hand-waved it all away. Abstracted everything. And you know what? After they recovered from the initial shock of having their ultra-anal DM suddenly convert overnight, my players didn't miss the book-keeping. Not. One. Single. Bit.
At the core of my apostasy was the realization that, whether we tracked the money down to the last copper piece or just hand-waved it all, the players in my game were only ever going to have as much wealth as would to keep our game balanced and rewarding. Not too much more, not too much less. They weren't ever going to be able to buy a ship at 1st level, but they could usually afford a good sword. They might be able to buy that ship at 10th level, but they weren't going to buy a castle. And they might be able to buy a castle at 15th level, but they sure as heck weren't going to buy a sphere of annihilation.
Oh, I had detailed tax tables and different currencies and exchange rates for all the different kingdoms in my world. I probably could have taught the IRS new and even more fiendish ways to siphon off excess funds.
And then one day it struck me: while I did get a kick out of making up all these creative details, and my players got some enjoyment out of having this little extra dollop of verisimilitude plopped on top of our game, in the final analysis that modest additional pleasure did not really justify all the additional book-keeping.
So I just hand-waved it all away. Abstracted everything. And you know what? After they recovered from the initial shock of having their ultra-anal DM suddenly convert overnight, my players didn't miss the book-keeping. Not. One. Single. Bit.
At the core of my apostasy was the realization that, whether we tracked the money down to the last copper piece or just hand-waved it all, the players in my game were only ever going to have as much wealth as would to keep our game balanced and rewarding. Not too much more, not too much less. They weren't ever going to be able to buy a ship at 1st level, but they could usually afford a good sword. They might be able to buy that ship at 10th level, but they weren't going to buy a castle. And they might be able to buy a castle at 15th level, but they sure as heck weren't going to buy a sphere of annihilation.
Eternalknight
First Post
Anything that reduces bookkeeping is fine by me 
In fact, I am using Wealth in my Age of Worms game.
In fact, I am using Wealth in my Age of Worms game.
I am really intrigued by the idea of using a wealth system for my D&D game. What book should I look at for a good system that would take little modification to use in a D&D game.
I have the Iron Heroes book and they have a half-way wealth system in which you poor in like 100 gp for a wealth point and after accumulating enough wealth points you can influence people by paying them off to get you out of legal trouble or paying for a party and hobnobing with the nobility to get a chance to influence someone real important. It also has rules for gaining property and hiring retainers. You can cash in your wealth points for gold for 1/2 value.
I like this system, but it is only 1/2 a wealth system in that you still are tracking gp to purchase your gear and wealth points with.
I have the Iron Heroes book and they have a half-way wealth system in which you poor in like 100 gp for a wealth point and after accumulating enough wealth points you can influence people by paying them off to get you out of legal trouble or paying for a party and hobnobing with the nobility to get a chance to influence someone real important. It also has rules for gaining property and hiring retainers. You can cash in your wealth points for gold for 1/2 value.
I like this system, but it is only 1/2 a wealth system in that you still are tracking gp to purchase your gear and wealth points with.
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
Because Wealth, like everything else in d20 for the most part, is based around a 1-20 randomizer averaged at 10.5 ... once you go past about 40, things start to parallax really badly.
My methodology for solving that problem just involves decreasing the granularity of the system. Doesn't help with the problems with mecha and ships, but that's more issues with the mecha and starship rules.
And it doesn't really invalidate the Wealth system. If you can afford a starship ... well, then, you can afford gas or an upgrade from Discombobulator V.1.0 to V2.4. The key to playing with people who CAN'T afford the gas is have those purchases made seperately.
There's just no reason on earth other than enforced roleplaying reasons to choose slightly-cheaper but less-effective gear. If you're paying 50,000,000 dollars for something, 20,000 isn't a huge deal more to pay to get a gun twice as effective.
--fje
My methodology for solving that problem just involves decreasing the granularity of the system. Doesn't help with the problems with mecha and ships, but that's more issues with the mecha and starship rules.
And it doesn't really invalidate the Wealth system. If you can afford a starship ... well, then, you can afford gas or an upgrade from Discombobulator V.1.0 to V2.4. The key to playing with people who CAN'T afford the gas is have those purchases made seperately.
There's just no reason on earth other than enforced roleplaying reasons to choose slightly-cheaper but less-effective gear. If you're paying 50,000,000 dollars for something, 20,000 isn't a huge deal more to pay to get a gun twice as effective.
--fje
painandgreed
First Post
I don't think I'd ever go to a totally abstract system. I might change scale. Eventually, when the characters are spending out of a cities treasury, the cost of buying a round of drinks in the tavern doesn't matter any more but the cost of buying magic items still does. I might switch the scale to 100s or 1,000s instead of keeping track of every single gold piece and figure minor purchases can be taken out of the change.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
I think abstract wealth only works in systems where equipment isn't that important and wealth can vary among characters of the same level.
This happens in D20 Modern. Unfortunately, the Modern Profession skill isn't particularly balanced. You can end up with ridiculously high Wealth scores ... you just don't have anything to spend it on.
In D20 Future, it got messed up. All of a sudden, the Profession skill gives you an ability that isn't useless - it's too useful. I think they could have tried balancing gear with at least three things instead of just wealth. (In Alternity, for instance, a spaceship part took up space, electricity and wealth. In D20 Future, a spaceship part takes up a slot regardless of how powerful it is, and the only "balacing" point is wealth.)
This happens in D20 Modern. Unfortunately, the Modern Profession skill isn't particularly balanced. You can end up with ridiculously high Wealth scores ... you just don't have anything to spend it on.
In D20 Future, it got messed up. All of a sudden, the Profession skill gives you an ability that isn't useless - it's too useful. I think they could have tried balancing gear with at least three things instead of just wealth. (In Alternity, for instance, a spaceship part took up space, electricity and wealth. In D20 Future, a spaceship part takes up a slot regardless of how powerful it is, and the only "balacing" point is wealth.)
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