AC per level

Urbannen said:
I couldn't agree more, Datt. This topic has been addressed in different threads, but one simple solution I've heard is to give a dodge bonus equal to one-half a character's base attack bonus.

Whoa! I've got to give this idea the big thumbs down. The base rules do allow for players to become more proficient at dodging via special abilities (monk, rogue abilities) and feats (like um.. dodge). As a character increases in levels, she'll have the ability to have more of these defensive measures. Not to mention the above post stating correctly that increased HPs is a reflection of increased ability to dodge fatal blows.

I see no reason to add a rule giving all creatures more AC; all you are going to do is slow down combats, because I presume that your rule would give creatures increased AC equal to half their BAB?

There are plenty of things in D&D that I could see house-ruling, but this is not one of them.

-- Zerakon the Game Mage
 

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It helps to think of Hit Points not as a quantity of "how much damage can I take exactly" but "how much will this hurt?"

1st level fighter = 10 HP.
20th level fighter = 120 HP. (for the sake of argument).

Both guys get hit by an arrow doing 4 points of damage. 1st level guy goes "OW! There goes 40% of my HP!" while 20th level guy shrugs at the 3% loss and shrugs. The arrow did, basically, less damage to the experienced fighter. Imagine they both had 100 HP. The 1st level fighter would have taken 40 from the arrow, the 20th level fighter would have taken 3. Why? Because like someone said, HP are not a measure of how many pints of blood or mystical "life energy" you can lose before dying, it represents how good you are at rolling with the damage, reducing the blow, and getting mostly out of the way. To the 1st level fighter, the arrow is a major injury. To the 20th level fighter, it's a flesh wound.

AC, on the other hand, is about not getting hit at all. If the 20th level fighter wants to be simply harder to hit, then he raises his Dex, which adds to his AC. Makes sense, the nimble guy's harder to hit than the slower one. In armor, you can hit them but have the armor deflect the blow (when the attack roll beats the touch AC, but not the actual AC), which again makes sense. For ranged touch attacks, both the nimble guy in leathers and the nimble guy in chainmail are at the same risk of being zapped (if their stats are equal), because the armor provides no protection.

A high AC can partially compensate for low HP, to reflect the guy who just seems to be in the way of arrows a lot, so he layers on the armor. In the same way, high HP can compensate for low AC, to reflect the character who takes numerous "flesh wounds" but they don't hamper him as much.

edited to provide following example

Here we have two fighters. Private Pyle, with 40 HP and in a giant armor suit that gives him AC 19. Then we have General Hannibal, with 160 HP and tiny leather armor that gives him an AC of 13. Imagine both soldiers are standing still, with an unskilled commoner (no attack bonus) chucking a brick (average damage, 2 points) at them nonstop. Yes, both fighters have a WIS of 3 to be volunteering for this experiment.

The commoner hits Pyle hard enough to damage him with one out of every ten throws (a 19 or a 20). To do 40 HP worth of damage, it will take 200 rounds (20 minutes) of a brick barrage to KO Private Pyle.

Then the commoner starts in on General Hannibal. He hits him four out of every ten times (13-20). Hannibal's tough, though. The hits don't bother him as much, because he can roll with the blows (while the actual damage from each brick is the same, each one does less comparative damage to Hannibal than it does to Pyle). To do all 160 points of damage, the commoner has to throw for... 200 rounds (20 minutes). He hits Hannibal more often, but each hit counts less, because Hannibal's used to this kind of abuse.

If you were to put Hannibal in the big armor suit, it'd take that commoner forever and a day (80 minutes, to be exact) to KO Hannibal, because most of the bricks that WOULD have hit him before now just bounce off the armor. Of those that get through and would have hurt Private Pyle pretty significantly, General Hannibal just laughs and toughs it out. He's a gristly old cuss, ain't he?

~M.
 
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i agree, fighters learn how to hit more effectively ry level, it stands to reason that they'd lear how to not get hit too. the "hit point" argument is specious at best. sure a higher level character has more hit points, but he's also facing more deadly enemies. (how may times has ANY GM fired only one arow that only did + points of damage at a 20th lvl fighter?)

no, the scaling damage of appropriate enemies negates the greater hit points of higher level characters. in fact, i've seen and heard a lot of people say that at higher levels, combat is over much quicker, because everyone does so much more damage.

i think a defense bonus is a great idea. in fact we use one in our game. it's fairly complicated tho, and if you're interesed, i posted it at the end of this thread.

another option that occured to me while readign this thread, is to give characters the option of applying at most every other BAB +1 gained from leveling to the AC instead. or whatever other limitations on frequency might be appropriate for your game. jsut a random thought.

~NegZ
 

I guess the Expertise feat is what I am thinking of. It does what I want. I was just thinking of something like a +1/5 levels to AC. So at 20th level it would be like a +4 to your AC. Nothing super big, just a little something to make those 20th level characters that much harder to hit. I wasn't talking about just fighters, I was talking about all classes. I mean by now that 20th level Wizard has learned how to get out of the way of the screaming fighter a bit better than his level 1 apprentice.
 

The issue is that of the things that scale in D&D, AC is not one of them. Attack bonuses go up quickly in D&D, as does damage. Upper level combat between equals is very quick and very deadly. Increasing AC wouldn't slow down combat resolution, but it would slow down the rate at which PCs die or require massive healing from clerics. (Yes, that would mean that combat would take more rounds.) HPs are easily lost at high levels, and unlike in Star Wars, characters do not regain them by the hour.

I also think that allowing all characters to have an unlimited "Expertise" option would help the issue, especially in fights between equals. It's just more complicated than a straight class bonus. As it stands now, I rarely have a non-divine fighter character without Dodge and Expertise if I can possibly help it - if you can't heal yourself you have to hang onto every hit point you can. You can't always assume that the cleric is going to be there to save you yet again.

My prejudice is that I don't prefer the aspect of the D&D combat system that makes fighters rely on magical items and healing magic to protect themselves, rather than their own skill. I can work with it just fine, of course. I would like to see a Star Wars-type combat system in a 4th Edition of D&D.
 


I would think that a wizard would get better at getting out of the way rather than a fighter cause he knows it's gonna hurt more. :D
 

I am greatly in favor of class based defensive bonuses similar to WOT or d20 Modern. The problem with defensive bonuses in 3E is that if they stack with all the defensive magic items you could have a character walking around with an AC in the 50s easily.

Attacking doesnt suffer from a similar problem because your attack bonus can only be modified by two factors strength (or dex in some cases) and a single magical item bonus.

I have implemented a version before and here is what you would need to look out for:

1. Determine your method for granting the defensive AC bonus.

a. You could make it based off of BAB but that is very generic and makes all fighter classes as cookie cutter as their bab does now. It also gives little benefit to the 'agile' classes.

b. You could make it a bonus unique to the individual class itself. This is the method i chose to use. I have four defensive bonus skeems: monk, fighter/rogue/ranger, barb/pal/bard, sor/wiz/cleric/druid (best to worst).

2. Determine how your defensive bonus stacks with armor. If you chose to not allow it to stack with armor remember that you essentially made it useless for half of the core classes. You could set a limit for use with armor but again that still favors casters/sneakers a lot.

3. You will need to reduce the number of AC magical items in the game. This is the most important factor for making it work with D&D 3E. Specifically you will need to get rid of protection bonuses, natural armor bonuses or both depending on the degree of you defensive level bonus. What I did was roll all magical protection (deflection, armor, natural armor, shield) into one deflection bonus with all items stacking and set the maximum bonus to +10.

It takes a little bit of DM work but I am in favor a of a system that emphasizes character ability over the ritzy junk that anyone could carry.
 

Don't Star Wars and d20M use WP/VP systems?

In those games, it makes sense to add a level-based defensive bonus, since your VP stay fixed, and death isn't too far away (you don't have all those ablative hit points protecting you).

In D&D, your HP act in many ways like AC at high levels, in that they reduce the effectiveness of a hit (doing 3% damage instead of 40% damage, like in the example above).

Either system increases the liklihood that a higher level character will survive longer than a lower level character -- but I suspect that if you mix the mechanics, you may end up with a skewed system (straight AC + WP/VP = very deadly; defense bonus + HP = extremely tough PCs).

Anyone have first hand experience with a game designed with one of these mixes to comment (does WoT use HP or WP/VP)?
 

If you make level depended Defense Values / AC Bonus, this means at higher level not much more as that you effectively reduce the attack bonus the characters gain.

Your take if this is really neccessary...

Mustrum Ridcully
 

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