AC per level

[kenjib]

Instead of wacky new-chart defensive bonues, simply add the Reflex save bonus to your AC INSTEAD of just the Dex bonus.
Bam. Simple.

I like tying it to BaB better than reflex save. From what I understand, your skill at avoiding being hurt in a fight has more to do with the way you use your weapon than the ability to jump out of the way. I don't think that a rogue should have a better defensive bonus than a fighter, paladin, or barbarian.

 

[genshou]

Genshou

I like that VP/WP thing you've got there. I was already planning to start a 3.5 Midnight campaign with VP/WP incorporated.

How do handle regeneration and fast healing? By their sound, they should only cure WP. Should there be a new category of "rejuvenation" that rapidly restores VP also?

Well, I kinda forgot to come back to this thread for quite a while. To answer your question:

Regeneration as a monster ability converts normal attacks to subdual damage, and then heals subdual damage at a highly advanced rate. The ring of regeneration restores HP by the hour and subdual damage by each five minute period. In the case of VP/WP, the VP are sort of like subdual damage in that they heal more quickly. You'll have to figure it out for yourself, but the WP-only idea is good.

When I first explained the system, I totally screwed up critical hits in the way I explained it. If you go here, I have posted the REAL rules for VP/WP in D&D or d20 Modern, which you can see if you go to message #4 and message #8. Feel free to use my work, just remember to give me credit for doing all the work, if you ever publish it or use it for an online game (like mine).

This system wasn't designed for D&D, so if you have any questions about how things in D&D would work, such as monsters having VP or all WP, or regeneration, feel free to e-mail me at Lan at theddk dot com.

 

[genshou]

I like tying it to BaB better than reflex save. From what I understand, your skill at avoiding being hurt in a fight has more to do with the way you use your weapon than the ability to jump out of the way. I don't think that a rogue should have a better defensive bonus than a fighter, paladin, or barbarian.

True, but you will notice in d20 Modern that it is not the Strong hero or the Tough hero who gets the highest Defense bonus. It is the Fast hero. So it's not always related to base attack. Some classes are just able to dodge a lot better. To me, that makes sense for Monks and Rogues, both of whom rely on mobility. Whereas the fighter relies on HP and armor to avoid death.

So I think the reflex save is also a valid idea. After all, watch a Jackie Chan movie - not only can he dodge weird Reflex-type attacks, but he manages to use various tools to parry his foes' attacks.

Looking over all previous comments, I like the four following ideas (in no particular order):

1. VP/WP system, with class defense and all that, as I posted.
2. Using some division of BaB to determine it.
3. Using base reflex save bonus as class defense bonus.
4. Copying numbers from either SW or WoT.

Too bad this thread isn't as lively anymore, but hopefully somebody will read this now that it has been bumped, and we can get a lively discussion going again.

 

[Xavim]

Whatever happened to Expertise? Using your BAB for defence is exactly what that does. Just have one that allows you to use as much of your bab to your AC as you want.

Done.

 

[Arkhandus]

Don't forget, if you give a dodge bonus based on BAB, Base Reflex Save, or something else like those, imagine trying to hit an adult or older dragon, or certain fiends.......you'll NEVER get in a hit except on a successful 20, no matter how bad-arse your fighter is. So if it's anything like that, it would have to be like only +1 dodge per extra attack you would receive purely from BAB or UAB. Oh, and Superior Expertise is the feat that allows any amount of BAB to be added to AC. Besides, hit points already represent defensive skill and experience based on level and combat ability.

 

[S'mon]

IMO the sensible thing would be to let attack rolls be used as parry rolls, or give characters a parry roll based on BAB for every attack they get. Then the attacker would have to beat higher of both AC & parry roll to hit. I don't think having a level-based defense bonus to AC stack with other armour class bonuses works well in D&D for most classes since it throws out the expected level/AC curve for a standard-magic game.

 

[genshou]

Whatever happened to Expertise? Using your BAB for defence is exactly what that does. Just have one that allows you to use as much of your bab to your AC as you want.

Done.

But what about peopel who don't take Expertise as a feat? Does that mean that - because they chose a different feat tree for lack of bonus feats (we're not all fighters here) - they should be utterly incapable of defending themselves any better? No; something needs to be changed beyond merely Expertise. It still exists as a feat in games that use Class Defense, after all, so it's OBVIOUSLY something else.

 

[Crothian]

But what about peopel who don't take Expertise as a feat? Does that mean that - because they chose a different feat tree for lack of bonus feats (we're not all fighters here) - they should be utterly incapable of defending themselves any better? No; something needs to be changed beyond merely Expertise. It still exists as a feat in games that use Class Defense, after all, so it's OBVIOUSLY something else.

Expertise is actually just a better option then fighting defensively. And everyoen can fight defensively.

 

[genshou]

Don't forget, if you give a dodge bonus based on BAB, Base Reflex Save, or something else like those, imagine trying to hit an adult or older dragon, or certain fiends.......you'll NEVER get in a hit except on a successful 20, no matter how bad-arse your fighter is. So if it's anything like that, it would have to be like only +1 dodge per extra attack you would receive purely from BAB or UAB. Oh, and Superior Expertise is the feat that allows any amount of BAB to be added to AC. Besides, hit points already represent defensive skill and experience based on level and combat ability.

So make the dodge bonus apply only to character class levels and NOT to monster hit dice. Makes sense to me!

And HP do not represent the ability to avoid an attack entirely. I just have to keep stressing that! It's very disturbing that an unarmored samurai (which is what any of the skilled samurai did) gets nailed with energy drain and Shadowlands Taint (if Rokugan) so often! That's the main reason *I* use class defense. For samurai who are tired of acquiring Taint. Since the D&D armor represents deflection more than absorption, a samurai with the ability to dodge is just as well off as an armored samurai, who must rely on armor rather than mobility. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Armor is fine.

In a VP/WP system, where armor DR is often the difference between life and death, all armor provides at least 1 pt. of DR, even if the rest of its bonus is still to AC (medieval armor didn't absorb attacks so much as it deflected them). The system was originally designed for Star Wars, so that change needs to be made.

Also, VP/WP in place of normal HP to represent ability to lessen or take blows introduces a differing style element. The vitality points represent the uncanny way bullets seem to "just miss" your character when he's tied up and a villain is shooting at him as he lies on the ground. But at least it's a mite more realistic, and better explained than D&D HP with no AC increase.

 

[Xavim]

A character that doesn't take expertise is a warrior that has not devoted the time and commitment necessary to gain the ability to fight at higher levels unarmoured. The hulking European knight that fights ever battle in heavy armout really isn't going to know how to whip his swords around all that defensively, especially if he's used to using a shield. Unarmoured defence takes a lot of time and effort to get good at, and while you'r stuck in a tower with your face buried in a book, on your knees begging some diety to give you something shiney, frollicking through the medows as a badger, or investigating the mechanics of the next uber trap you're not developing that level of martial skill.