Academic curiousity Re Melee training and essentials

[Mengu]

That's their job. If you come to me claiming rogues, avengers, or monks need them, I'd say you're crazy, they're doing other things that boost their damage output, or in the case of Avengers, actively encourage enemies to try to escape.

It's not so much a matter of "need", but a matter of "want". One of the great ways for a leader to contribute to party damage is giving the striker an extra attack. Warlords, Shamans, Bards, Clerics, and Runepriests all have ways of doing this. And to me, it doesn't make any sense that a rogue should forget how to stab with his dagger, or the avenger forget how to swing his full blade, when the warlord asks for it, but they can do it fine during their turn. It feels more like a fallacy of the system, than a designed flaw.

In PHB only days, we didn't have the million tools we do have now, but we still kicked monster butt. We don't "need" anything. We just "want" tools that make more sense and create a more fun environment.

 

[Nichwee]

I am a fencer - I melee via Dex (like a rogue) - I am pretty good at it (made the Uni team etc).

If someone shouted at me to "Hit him right now!" I would not do a good job of it. I make my attacks by fienting, drawing the opponent, swinging my blade about to confuse etc. I don't just take a reckless swing, which is what I think of for the Leader's granted attacks - they are quick (free action) and unconordinated with my typical style (MBA not a class power). ~As for charging, well fencing has it's own version of a mini-charge (the lunge) and when most fencers do a full on charge it has about a 70% chance to get them hit rather than the revesre as it forgoes all the finesse and poise normally used in their attacks. So the idea of someone who has a Dex-based melee style being bad at MBA's is hardly unthinkable to me.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The thing is that a basic attack isn't a normal attack. It's a split second reflex thing. I have no problem conceptually with a bard who can feint and bluff his way through his opponent's defence using charisma needing a couple of seconds to beat that defence rather than having a lightning hair trigger and charging in at full extension.

Dex is a slightly harder case - but if you're on Int, Cha, Con, or even Wis then the basic attacks being weak while time spent assessing and beating your foe mentally isn't a fluff problem. Fortunately in Essentials, all the dex melee attack classes we've seen use dex for basic attacks. Leaving the main problem as the PHB rogue (and the pre-essentials assassin who's generally a problem anyway - the Monk isn't because a random snap strike has to avoid hand hitting armour so can be fluffed in either direction). Of course the biggest PHB rogue problem here is the lack of Warlord synergy with Commander's Strike + flanking, which is an edge case anyway.

 

[Ryujin]

I am a fencer - I melee via Dex (like a rogue) - I am pretty good at it (made the Uni team etc).

If someone shouted at me to "Hit him right now!" I would not do a good job of it. I make my attacks by fienting, drawing the opponent, swinging my blade about to confuse etc. I don't just take a reckless swing, which is what I think of for the Leader's granted attacks - they are quick (free action) and unconordinated with my typical style (MBA not a class power). ~As for charging, well fencing has it's own version of a mini-charge (the lunge) and when most fencers do a full on charge it has about a 70% chance to get them hit rather than the revesre as it forgoes all the finesse and poise normally used in their attacks. So the idea of someone who has a Dex-based melee style being bad at MBA's is hardly unthinkable to me.

Sure, for DEX in that specific case, but what about CON based attacks for example? Seems rather counter intuitive in that case.

But how far do you want to break it down anyway? To me the answer is, "Not at all."

 

[Mengu]

I am a fencer - I melee via Dex (like a rogue) - I am pretty good at it (made the Uni team etc).

If someone shouted at me to "Hit him right now!" I would not do a good job of it. I make my attacks by fienting, drawing the opponent, swinging my blade about to confuse etc. I don't just take a reckless swing, which is what I think of for the Leader's granted attacks - they are quick (free action) and unconordinated with my typical style (MBA not a class power). ~As for charging, well fencing has it's own version of a mini-charge (the lunge) and when most fencers do a full on charge it has about a 70% chance to get them hit rather than the revesre as it forgoes all the finesse and poise normally used in their attacks. So the idea of someone who has a Dex-based melee style being bad at MBA's is hardly unthinkable to me.

How much finesse does it take to slice a gelatinous cube or a zombie hulk? How often do you practice jabbing stone golems or umber hulks with your rapier? We don't need real life examples to be perfect. Just moderately reasonable. And I can reasonably see a quick and unexpected jab at an opponent's spleen taking them off guard and dishing out as much damage as a more calculated attack.

When I talk about fluff, I'm usually talking about game world fluff, not real world fluff. If the warlord can make the archer ranger shoot his bow (the ranger's tool of choice) with perfect accuracy, but can't make the wizard squeeze a magic bolt from his staff (the wizard's tool of choice), that doesn't make fluff or mechanical sense to me.

 

[karolusb]

I am a fencer - I melee via Dex (like a rogue) - I am pretty good at it (made the Uni team etc).

If someone shouted at me to "Hit him right now!" I would not do a good job of it. I make my attacks by fienting, drawing the opponent, swinging my blade about to confuse etc. I don't just take a reckless swing, which is what I think of for the Leader's granted attacks - they are quick (free action) and unconordinated with my typical style (MBA not a class power). ~As for charging, well fencing has it's own version of a mini-charge (the lunge) and when most fencers do a full on charge it has about a 70% chance to get them hit rather than the revesre as it forgoes all the finesse and poise normally used in their attacks. So the idea of someone who has a Dex-based melee style being bad at MBA's is hardly unthinkable to me.

A good fencer can react as well as act. Reacting is basic attacks. As a fencer I imagine that if your opponent stopped to pull something out of his fanny pack (provoking an oppurtunity attack in game mechanic terms) that you would make him pay for it. The riposte portion of risposte strike is str, meaning that per d&d rules ripostes are even harder to do for a dex character than wild swings, (as melee training doesn't technically fix this) the best riposters in the world are hulking 250lb behemoths, go explain that to your fellow fencers. At the end of the day the question isn't whether you are good at charging, or swinging when your coach yells at you etc., it's whether tacking on 30lbs of lean muscle would make you better at it (it wouldn't, at least not noticably).

Real world arguments all fail to grasp that oppurtunity attacks are a game mechanic. In the real world there are held actions, actions, and rushed actions. And that is it. If guy B turns his back on me while I am parrying Guy A, no free attack. Just the way it is. For that matter there is never a free attack. It takes a certain amount of time to swing the sword (this can vary, again between held and rushed, light tap and haymaker, but the variance is not 100% or 0%, but more like 80%-120%). Someone shouting never makes me swing a sword faster. Again just the way it is.

Now in a real fight you don't come anywhere near your swing limit (fencing comes closer than other types of fighting, though it is still doubtful you spend much time at your physical limit). Instead of [swing swing swing], real fights are [wait, approach, wait, eye feint, block, swing]. I could, if presented an opportunity too good to pass up (say my opponent goes digging in his fanny pack for a "potion"), squeeze an extra attack or two into the sequence, but the oppurtunity would still need to come at the right time. How much I can bench press would not impact the quality of those swings in any relevant way, actually, a nimble fighter would be better at taking advantage of such openings than a brutish one.

Real world combat is more hollistic than I use str, you use dex, but D&D is a game. It simplifies certain things and exphasizes differences in broad strokes. I respect that, enjoy it even. But I do find the fact that nimble rogues suck at risposting, or striking when someone lets their guard down, to be a clash between reasonable expectations, and mechanics.

 

[Nichwee]

[MENTION=65726]Mengu[/MENTION]
Well if the spell to cast a magic bolt takes a few seconds to cast vs pulling a bow which can be "snapped" (and snapped well if you practice hunting shots a lot) then I see no problem with the idea the Ranger can respond to "Shoot Now!" better than the mage - tho if the mage has a very quick cast spell it would also be able to respond to the call (and it would have a spell that counts as a RBA I expect - Like Magic Missile).

[MENTION=83359]karolusb[/MENTION]
I wasn't trying to say that all oppertunity attacks are innately made better by more strength - or that a Dex-based fighter could never make a good "grab the oppertunity" attack.

I was saying enough cases exist in my experience to say Dex-based (or anything based tbh) melee shouldn't automatically be able to do good MBAs. This is hardly a fact so far removed from normal as to harm the flow or fluff of the game to breaking point. Any style of fighting that isn't "wind up and swing" would have reasons to potentially be worse at quick "just swing now" attacks imo. Not would HAVE TO BE WORSE but certainly COULD BE WORSE - so if you want to be better get Melee Training.

As for the "He reaches into his fanny pack" oppertunity, well I have never been granted such an oppertunity in a single D&D fight so far - mobs rarely have rason to reach into a bag, and would probably shift away first if they needed to. SO I don't see the failure to take such an oppertunity well as being all that important tbh. And if this did come up I think "Yes" being a 200lb behemoth would be helpful as this is the sort of oppertunity that is screaming for "No finesse just smack him while he isn't looking!" which being extremely strong would be good at.

It is a game, and as such I don't see how having some classes designed to represent a more poised style of melee, that therefore doesn't do MBAs well as these are D&Ds version of "swing and hope", breaks things so much. The need for MBAs is the rarity - and if you get a lot of them and have a rotten one you invest in Melee Training and get a good (but not great) one.

 

[Mengu]

It is a game, and as such I don't see how having some classes designed to represent a more poised style of melee, that therefore doesn't do MBAs well as these are D&Ds version of "swing and hope", breaks things so much. The need for MBAs is the rarity - and if you get a lot of them and have a rotten one you invest in Melee Training and get a good (but not great) one.

This is where we disagree. Why should a party with a Knight, Slayer, Mage, and Warlord be more effective in charges, opportunity attacks, and granted attacks, than a party with Battlemind, Avenger, Invoker, and Bard? I simply want them to be on even playing ground without having to invest otherwise valuable resources. The Battlemind has to either pick a feat to be half as good as Knight with basic attacks, or pick specific daily powers. Avenger has to worship a certain god, pick a certain feat and a certain at-will power. Invoker has to sacrifice big flexibility, and pick an at-will basic attack, forgoing either a multi-target zap or an AoE. Bard either has to be a certain race with a certain power, or is pretty much out of luck.

I just don't buy that strength should be the ultimate attack stat, when there are non-strength weapon using classes.

 

[Nichwee]

Well I guess we are just going to disagree.

Strength isn't the ultimate attack stat - it is the basic melee attack stat.
If you don't learn another way to do so, the basic "swing and hope" technique is the standard answer to "How do I use this then?".
If you hand someone who doesn't normally swing a sword (or other weapon) one they will swing it about and hope for the best. If you take someone who normally picks their moment to strike (uses Dex, Wis, Int or Cha) and ask them to swing suddenly they will just wind up and go - unless they specifically put effort into learning another way to go about it.

I understand it may seem annoying but the classes chosen all have strengths and weaknesses - lacking a good MBA is one such weakness. If that isn't for you, play a class that has a good MBA of some sort. But I don't think the game should have to make it so every class gets the same quality of MBA just because they know ho wto weild a weapon.

But either way it is a matter of personal taste, so I am upset to hear this erks you but I don't personally think it is a big enough problem to need huge fixing (and this is from a guy who plays a wizard [WotST PP], with Ranger MQ, who is obsessed with using melee swings and had Melee Training such that MBA was his most damaging At-Will - I still have MT but it doesn't do as well of course).

 

[Shin Okada]

But either way it is a matter of personal taste, so I am upset to hear this erks you but I don't personally think it is a big enough problem to need huge fixing (and this is from a guy who plays a wizard [WotST PP], with Ranger MQ, who is obsessed with using melee swings and had Melee Training such that MBA was his most damaging At-Will - I still have MT but it doesn't do as well of course).

Well, if you see each PC as that PC own, having less-effective BA may not be a big problem.

But effectiveness of BA does matter a lot when a party has a PC who grants BA (usually a leader).

That means, sometimes some player is discouraged to play a class which does not have good MBA when a party's leader is good at granting MBA. Even if he wants to play another class of the same role. I mean, say, he may give up (or mildly discouraged) to play a Battlemind instead of other defender class.