Old Fezziwig
hell yes bro
I think that's actually a very good point, Faraer. I'd never thought of that before.
Academic Plague in gaming
- Thread starter Nisarg
- Start date
Ankh-Morpork Guard
First Post
*GASP!* He's right! The world is ending! Not just WoD anymore! Its spread to everything because of stories! The end is NIGH!MerricB said:
...that felt good. I'll shut up now, as I can't think of anything to say that doesn't involve offending Eric's Grandma.
TheAuldGrump
First Post
Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
A wise man!
But the end isn't NIGH! I still have about a quarter of the book to go...
The Auld Grump
I've been keeping up with this thread since it started and I can't help but get quite the laugh out of it. A number of people have pointed out various errors in Nisarg's thought, and given them the correct names. And I find it humorous that he just comes rampaging back with conflated statistics linking circumstances that were likely at best barely related, or ad hominem whereby he attacks specific persons from the industry saying that because they have a dot in their name they must be "all high and mighty".
If you, Nisarg, want to remove all words of an exacting form from anything ever written or spoken, you'd do well to move to a tiny backwoods hut all by yourself, because otherwise you'll encounter them all over the place. (The Alzhiemer's example was a good one). Unless of course you are going to hang all the academics and burn all the books.
Really, I hate to say it but get a dictionary and realize that some of the words being used can't be deflated into simpler terms.
The excerpt you copied from the Forge had a more accurate interpretation by Kajamba Lion, rather than your own. I have visited the Forge in the past, although I don't find it my cup of tea as a gamer, I'm also quite intrigued by it as an academic student myself. Calling them pretentious and declaring that they engage solely in mental masturbation are two different things. "Mental masturbation" is often a catch-all phrase often employed, in a derisory manner, regarding those who practice forms of deeper analysis and construction which do not exhibit superficially visible practical reasons. By calling them pretentious you are saying that those who are writing are bloating their work for the very specific reason of making it look important.
However, have you ever read a very technical electronics manual. You aren't going to understand all of that unless you have electrical training, yet it isn't being pretentious. The same goes for at least some of the work that goes on at Forge, however you need some experience to understand the terms they are using.
In my experience, I'm an undergraduate student in philosophy in my final year, if you bloat your writings with useless tripe to make yourself look "smart" the professors are going to catch you on it. Often times the first draft of a work is cut down a great deal to remove extraneous sentences/paragraphs/words which detract from the overall work. The more common place to find pretentious writing is in less formally trained writers work, not that it is always the case.
Alright, probably too much writing, so it'll turn into a return post of "you're one of them! You pretentious git attack."
If you, Nisarg, want to remove all words of an exacting form from anything ever written or spoken, you'd do well to move to a tiny backwoods hut all by yourself, because otherwise you'll encounter them all over the place. (The Alzhiemer's example was a good one). Unless of course you are going to hang all the academics and burn all the books.
Really, I hate to say it but get a dictionary and realize that some of the words being used can't be deflated into simpler terms.
The excerpt you copied from the Forge had a more accurate interpretation by Kajamba Lion, rather than your own. I have visited the Forge in the past, although I don't find it my cup of tea as a gamer, I'm also quite intrigued by it as an academic student myself. Calling them pretentious and declaring that they engage solely in mental masturbation are two different things. "Mental masturbation" is often a catch-all phrase often employed, in a derisory manner, regarding those who practice forms of deeper analysis and construction which do not exhibit superficially visible practical reasons. By calling them pretentious you are saying that those who are writing are bloating their work for the very specific reason of making it look important.
However, have you ever read a very technical electronics manual. You aren't going to understand all of that unless you have electrical training, yet it isn't being pretentious. The same goes for at least some of the work that goes on at Forge, however you need some experience to understand the terms they are using.
In my experience, I'm an undergraduate student in philosophy in my final year, if you bloat your writings with useless tripe to make yourself look "smart" the professors are going to catch you on it. Often times the first draft of a work is cut down a great deal to remove extraneous sentences/paragraphs/words which detract from the overall work. The more common place to find pretentious writing is in less formally trained writers work, not that it is always the case.
Alright, probably too much writing, so it'll turn into a return post of "you're one of them! You pretentious git attack."
Ankh-Morpork Guard
First Post
...well...um...how about the end is night? Does that give you enough time to fininsh it?TheAuldGrump said:A wise man!
But the end isn't NIGH! I still have about a quarter of the book to go...
The Auld Grump
Campbell
Relaxed Intensity
Your experience and mine are antithetical to say the least. Almost everyone that I've played Vampire with has also played in my D&D games. I can't say that my anecdotal evidence trumps yours, but I also cannot see where your anecdotal evidence trumps my own. For good or ill, I've found that most of those people who prefer Vampire and other WoD games over D&D do so because they prefer the romanticized gothic horror genre over the heroic fantasy genre.
As to your attack on story-based gaming, and the mindset of indie-games goes I'd suggest you take a look at the film industry. Independent film houses also share this perception of the mainstream of their industry being fundamentally flawed, and the general populace sees this for the bull that it is. In order for your arguement to work, most roleplayers must be easily swayed and incredibly supid. Your lack of faith in other people to decide what works best for themselves is trully astounding.
Additionally, your over reliance on the words of Ryan Dancey suggests that you are not overly concerned with the whole of the roleplaying market, or even unbiased viewpoints. While Dancey was responsible for the OGL of which I am thankful, one cannot base an arguement of this nature on the words of one man. From my vantage point, I have not seen a drop in systems proliferation resulting from the OGL, but rather I have seen the emergence of several key players who would not be publishing rpg materials otherwise, AEG being the only trully notable exception that I have seen. We have recently seen Hero 5th Edition, Gurps 4th Edition, Ars Magica 5th Edition, The d6 RPG, the emergence of the cinematic Unisystem, the New World of Darkness, the return of Shadowrun, WoD 2.0, a new edition of CoC, and an upcoming new edition of WHFRP. The proliferation of systems is as widespread as it ever was, and that's fine with me. The kinds of arguements offered by Dancey in defence of TSR are reminiscent of a little boy caught with his hand in the cookie jar saying his sister ate all the cookies. If you want to blame any one for the decline of AD&D and thus the roleplaying industry, blame the ineptitude of Lorraine Williams and other TSR managers.
As to your attack on story-based gaming, and the mindset of indie-games goes I'd suggest you take a look at the film industry. Independent film houses also share this perception of the mainstream of their industry being fundamentally flawed, and the general populace sees this for the bull that it is. In order for your arguement to work, most roleplayers must be easily swayed and incredibly supid. Your lack of faith in other people to decide what works best for themselves is trully astounding.
Additionally, your over reliance on the words of Ryan Dancey suggests that you are not overly concerned with the whole of the roleplaying market, or even unbiased viewpoints. While Dancey was responsible for the OGL of which I am thankful, one cannot base an arguement of this nature on the words of one man. From my vantage point, I have not seen a drop in systems proliferation resulting from the OGL, but rather I have seen the emergence of several key players who would not be publishing rpg materials otherwise, AEG being the only trully notable exception that I have seen. We have recently seen Hero 5th Edition, Gurps 4th Edition, Ars Magica 5th Edition, The d6 RPG, the emergence of the cinematic Unisystem, the New World of Darkness, the return of Shadowrun, WoD 2.0, a new edition of CoC, and an upcoming new edition of WHFRP. The proliferation of systems is as widespread as it ever was, and that's fine with me. The kinds of arguements offered by Dancey in defence of TSR are reminiscent of a little boy caught with his hand in the cookie jar saying his sister ate all the cookies. If you want to blame any one for the decline of AD&D and thus the roleplaying industry, blame the ineptitude of Lorraine Williams and other TSR managers.
howandwhy99
Adventurer
Me # 1: I hate the way you play the game. It's pretentious and overbearing. You do nothing but drive people away from the hobby!
My Friend # 2: The way you play is ignorant and wrong-headed. It promotes immaturity and relegates roleplaying to a fringe activity in society!
Player # 3: Multiple systems of games exist to promote a variety of "roleplay" experiences for a diverse of set of people. GNS theory and others like it attempt to codify styles of games, though each theory has its detractors. Experimental RPG designers like those at The Forge are trying to utilize novel theories in their game designs to expand the library of games out there.
(obviously Player # 3 is the one with the problem)
I personally believe that pretty much anyone or anything that attacks roleplaying games in any form (CRPGs, MMORPGs, CCG, RPG boardgames, tabletop, Larps, etc.) is hurting the hobby. If you don't like the way a game is, change it or don't play it. Maybe you can expand the hobby? Trying to remove one segment of it can only shrink it.
My Friend # 2: The way you play is ignorant and wrong-headed. It promotes immaturity and relegates roleplaying to a fringe activity in society!
Player # 3: Multiple systems of games exist to promote a variety of "roleplay" experiences for a diverse of set of people. GNS theory and others like it attempt to codify styles of games, though each theory has its detractors. Experimental RPG designers like those at The Forge are trying to utilize novel theories in their game designs to expand the library of games out there.
(obviously Player # 3 is the one with the problem)
I personally believe that pretty much anyone or anything that attacks roleplaying games in any form (CRPGs, MMORPGs, CCG, RPG boardgames, tabletop, Larps, etc.) is hurting the hobby. If you don't like the way a game is, change it or don't play it. Maybe you can expand the hobby? Trying to remove one segment of it can only shrink it.
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Psion
Adventurer
I think threefold theory (as first seen on rec.games.frp.advocacy) moved foreward the state of RPG theory and discussion immensely. In it's most basic form, it made us aware that different people game for different reasons.
Of course, I am convinced that the theories some folk have at the forge often do become entirely academic and have little useful feedback to the state of the hobby. In the meantime, people who don't like being told that no one type of gaming is objectively correct slam on threefold theories, alongside those who think that the current state of theoretical ruminations as defined by some luminaries at the forge have evolved beyond usefulness. So often, what is ultimately an interesting and important observation about what motivates game players often gets trampled beneath the internet chatter.
Of course, I am convinced that the theories some folk have at the forge often do become entirely academic and have little useful feedback to the state of the hobby. In the meantime, people who don't like being told that no one type of gaming is objectively correct slam on threefold theories, alongside those who think that the current state of theoretical ruminations as defined by some luminaries at the forge have evolved beyond usefulness. So often, what is ultimately an interesting and important observation about what motivates game players often gets trampled beneath the internet chatter.
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