Acid, Blades, and Balance?

[Shadowdweller]

Anyone have thoughts, concerns, or hopefully mitigating information about the following?

As per the FAQ, acid and sonic damage has been ruled to ignore hardness in items. The thing is, acid damage is easy to do to objects, although perhaps not in large amounts: acid flasks are relatively inexpensive, and Melf's Acid Arrow allows (a 2nd level spell) allows one to deal approximately 5 damage per round to an object with a touch attack. The problem this seems to create is that there are a number of weapons and items with very few hitpoints. Notably blades and chain (spiked chain users, despair!), which, even whilst magic, will tend to fail to a few acid flasks or rounds of an acid arrow. This strike anyone else as a little...wrong? A 2nd level spell that can disarm your average fighter WITHOUT a saving throw?

Perhaps I'm mistaking the danger here: The rules are somewhat unclear about making a touch attack against a weapon or other carried item. The best I can find is that it gives the item the bearer's dex bonus to AC. Am I wrong here? Is such an attack actually an opposed attack roll (which would be nasty for arcane casters at least)?

 

[Camarath]

Normally to attack a weapon, shield, or other carried object one needs to use the Sunder speacial attack. I believe that to damage weapons and other attended items, other than through the use of Sunder, the spell, effect, or item you wish to use must state that it can be used to damage or traget items. Thus since Acid Arrow does not say it can be used to traget or attack weapons or other attended items it can not be used to do so.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I think the presumption is the other way- unless an damaging spell says it cannot affect a weapon, it can. See the description of magic missile as an example.

 

[Camarath]

I think the presumption is the other way- unless an damaging spell says it cannot affect a weapon, it can. See the description of magic missile as an example.

Magic missile only says it can not damage inanimate objects. Since one can not traget items with the spell any way because the spell's traget is up to five creatures the additional limitation of not being able to damage the items which you can not traget is not particularly important.

What do you think of this rule quote?

"Items Surviving after a Saving Throw: Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects)."

It is my contention that unattended object may be trageted with attacks and some spells or damaged by area effects like Fireball and Acid Cloud but that attended items are basicly a part of the creature carring them and can not be trageted unless the spell or effect states that it can or does affect attended items or has traget: object or through the use of Sunder.

 

[Alejandro]

WTH? Acid and sonic attacks do not ignore hardness -- hardness always applies, but acid and sonic attacks simply inflict full damage, as opposed to fire or electricty (half damage) or cold (1/4 damage).

 

[Camarath]

WTH? Acid and sonic attacks do not ignore hardness -- hardness always applies, but acid and sonic attacks simply inflict full damage, as opposed to fire or electricty (half damage) or cold (1/4 damage).

From SRD

"Energy Attacks: Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness."

Thus if one decides that "as they do to creatures" means with out hardness since creatures to not normally benefit from hardness the sentance can be read to say that "Acid and sonic attacks deal full damage to most objects and ignore hardness". Also the fact that other energy types talk about applying hardness and acid and sonic do not could be used to support the view that hardness is not applied. I think that the sentence is most likely ment to mean "Acid and sonic attacks deal full damage to most objects; do not divide the damage before applying the hardness." but it is possible that it means that acid and sonic ignore an objects hardness.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

WTH? Acid and sonic attacks do not ignore hardness -- hardness always applies, but acid and sonic attacks simply inflict full damage, as opposed to fire or electricty (half damage) or cold (1/4 damage).

From the FAQ:

Acid and sonic attacks ignore hardness. Melf’s acid arrow has the acid descriptor and would ignore an animated object’s hardness.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Wth? Omg!

 

[Shadowdweller]

It is my contention that unattended object may be trageted with attacks and some spells or damaged by area effects like Fireball and Acid Cloud but that attended items are basicly a part of the creature carring them and can not be trageted unless the spell or effect states that it can or does affect attended items or has traget: object or through the use of Sunder.

I'm rather of opinion that that passage refers to generalized area attacks, such as fireball, where taking into account held possessions would be prohibitive in terms of time spent adjudicating combat and devestation on top of the already high damage. In the case of targetted spells, this is not so however. There are spells which speak of targetting held items, although I suppose it might be reasoned that such statements are what allows such spells to be used in this manner. However, it defies logic that a targetted spell which does not precisely specify that it cannot be used to target objects cannot be used to target a held item.

This does not, moreover, solve the issue. Note that acid flasks are non-magical. Even worse, there is a feat in the Complete Warrior that specifically allows one to make sundering attacks (if you'd need something so specific with an acid flask) with ranged weapons.

(hope that's not too horribly confusing, anway )

 

[Liminal Syzygy]

The problem this seems to create is that there are a number of weapons and items with very few hitpoints.

This is a problem as well. Generally item hitpoints are too low... PCs can chop through massive wooden doors like they were paper.