Acquisitions Inc. switching to Daggerheart

I've heard it characterized as being able to be played like 5E before, if someone doesn't like the narrative bits.... I'm sorry, then what's the value proposition? It's either different in ways that create a barrier to entry for many people, or it's like 5E. Why not just play 5E, or go with something truly different?

It may be a solid game by itself, but the videos I've seen relied on a level of player involvement I rarely see with any type of game, almost like some of those players auditioned for it. That makes them actors, not regular players.

I don't see it disappearing, but how big can the market for it be alongside D&D?
I think DH does a lot of "5E things" better than 5E because it is not beholden to ancient design. It draws from many different games to try and do different aspects of play well. It has a little Fate in it and a little 4E in it and a little Genysys in it and a little PbtA. All of those different influences are leveraged toward heroic neo-trad TTRPG adventure fantasy.

Why not just play 5E? Because 5E is not optimized for the kind of play that developed out of it. It is a decent engine shackled to a load of legacy elements better left behind.
 

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I think DH does a lot of "5E things" better than 5E because it is not beholden to ancient design. It draws from many different games to try and do different aspects of play well. It has a little Fate in it and a little 4E in it and a little Genysys in it and a little PbtA. All of those different influences are leveraged toward heroic neo-trad TTRPG adventure fantasy.

Why not just play 5E? Because 5E is not optimized for the kind of play that developed out of it. It is a decent engine shackled to a load of legacy elements better left behind.
Reasonable points. I'd be more inclined to believe in it if this were a world without D&D.

Gaining traction and holding ground in the gaming space is tough with games that are more than just pamphlets. The greater the initial investment of time and effort, the tougher it is too. I personally think DH is more game than most people want.

Lots of ppl love it right now. Can't argue with that.
 

Shadowdark has a smaller core rulebook, an easier hook to explain (torch time), solid execution of a simple premise, smaller and cheaper to print and ship, and it builds upon the most popular TTRPG in the history of the world.
I mean, sure, but gritty dungeon crawling is a pretty niche and focused interest: speaking as someone who has tried to interest friends & families in DCC for years, only a subset of RPG players want that vibe. Daggerheart, on the other hand, seems to offer a broader and flexible ge re canvas with some fresh rules.
I bet $2 it's still chugging along a year from now while most Daggerheart players will have moved on to something else.

Fad IMO but time will tell.
I mean, DCC is still chugging along, as are tons of games, I am certain that Shadowdark will keep on doing fine.

But as someone who doesn't have a horse in the race, I wouldn't bet against Daggerheart in the long run: the bones seem solid, the community has exploded to literally unprecedented levels (Shadowdark is doing very nice, but at a quote precedented level), and they have a huge media engine. Shadowdark doesn't get headlines in Hollywood newspapers.

It is also worth noting that the TTRPG scene is not Zero-Sum: some people play 5E and Shadowdark, some people play 5E and Daggerheart (like Matt Mercer), some people play Shadowdark and Daggerheart, some probably play all 3. This isn't Highlander, there doesn't have to Be Only One (no matter what Ben Riggs thinks :p ). Different games can coexist and even grow the hobby.
 

Reasonable points. I'd be more inclined to believe in it if this were a world without D&D.

Gaining traction and holding ground in the gaming space is tough with games that are more than just pamphlets. The greater the initial investment of time and effort, the tougher it is too. I personally think DH is more game than most people want.

Lots of ppl love it right now. Can't argue with that.
Nobody thinks Daggerheart will "replace" D&D...but it can establish itself as a major player, IMO.
 

Reasonable points. I'd be more inclined to believe in it if this were a world without D&D.

Gaining traction and holding ground in the gaming space is tough with games that are more than just pamphlets. The greater the initial investment of time and effort, the tougher it is too. I personally think DH is more game than most people want.

Lots of ppl love it right now. Can't argue with that.
Do you talk this way about other tabletop games out there on the market or just Daggerheart?
 

Do you talk this way about other tabletop games out there on the market or just Daggerheart?
No reason to mention most other games. Most other games have already settled into being niche products, or they've never risen above being niche products in the first place.

Daggerheart is currently quite popular. I recognize that. I did call it a fad though and stand behind it. Merely my opinion.

Before the angry mob forms, I'll point out that I didn't eviscerate Daggerheart. I've never even played it, just watched a few videos.

I didn't say that I thought it was garbage, but I don't see it having mainstream staying power for the reasons I've already given.
 


No reason to mention most other games. Most other games have already settled into being niche products, or they've never risen above being niche products in the first place.

Daggerheart is currently quite popular. I recognize that. I did call it a fad though and stand behind it. Merely my opinion.

Before the angry mob forms, I'll point out that I didn't eviscerate Daggerheart. I've never even played it, just watched a few videos.

I didn't say that I thought it was garbage, but I don't see it having mainstream staying power for the reasons I've already given.

I'd say it already has established itself. Question is, will it still have featured shelf space in most game stores a year from now? I don't think so. I think it's having its 15 minutes right now.

But you haven't really given reasons, just a vague belief that it requires more from players than D&D -- despite, by your own admission, you not having played it (or even read it, it seems).

I am not saying DH definitely has legs, but the reason you gave does not really exist.
 

No reason to mention most other games. Most other games have already settled into being niche products, or they've never risen above being niche products in the first place.

Daggerheart is currently quite popular. I recognize that. I did call it a fad though and stand behind it. Merely my opinion.

Before the angry mob forms, I'll point out that I didn't eviscerate Daggerheart. I've never even played it, just watched a few videos.

I didn't say that I thought it was garbage, but I don't see it having mainstream staying power for the reasons I've already given.

I gave you a like, not because I necessarily agree with you (although I find your thesis interesting) but because I don't think you deserve some of the pushback you are getting.

Look, we are all fans of various things. But we should be able to discuss them without being so invested in them that we mistake the success of failure of these commercial products with ... our our personal worth, right?

The sun will rise, the sun will set, and tomorrow? Tomorrow, I will have lunch. And whether Daggerheart is the #1 TTRPG, or the a "major player," or a fad ... doesn't affect the lunch I will have.

I have my own biases and preconceptions about why I think D&D has long-dominated the TTRPG market which I have discussed at length- some of the reasons are path dependency, "legacy" (loosely defined), network effects, the campaign (along with "zero to hero" or the Diablo effect), the "Cheesecake factory" (Arrow's theorem) effect, and ... the division of authority. All of these factors can play into each other, but the division of authority is a big one. In other words, D&D is a game that allows mixed groups of players, many with little or no knowledge and many with little or no enthusiasm to play together, so long as you have a single person that knows the rules and keeps things on track. That also has drawbacks, but (IMO- this is not gospel) it's one of the reasons that D&D tends to have a dominant position, while other VERY VERY VERY good games that cater to other audiences don't have the same market.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how Daggerheart, which is backed by a major player in the industry and is benefitting from good publicity, does! It arguably has a lot of the design features that allow D&D to be so commercially successful that I outlined above- but not all of them. The success (or lack thereof) of Daggerheart in the next few years might tell us a lot about what the mass market (ahem) for TTRPGs wants, and, perhaps, if it has changed in the last few years.

In other words- is Daggerheart going to keep building on the momentum it has gained? Is it appealing to a crowd that is craving something different (a newer, younger crowd)? Or will it hit a ceiling / time limit (fad) and peter out as many prior games have before?

I don't know. But I think it's possible to have reasonable conversations about it.

Finally, I will reiterate that it should be possible to discuss whether or not Daggerheart is successful commercially and have that be a SEPARATE conversation than whether it is a great TTRPG. A lot of the games I love best are ones that never appealed to the majority of gamers ... and that's okay!
 

I gave you a like, not because I necessarily agree with you (although I find your thesis interesting) but because I don't think you deserve some of the pushback you are getting.

Look, we are all fans of various things. But we should be able to discuss them without being so invested in them that we mistake the success of failure of these commercial products with ... our our personal worth, right?

The sun will rise, the sun will set, and tomorrow? Tomorrow, I will have lunch. And whether Daggerheart is the #1 TTRPG, or the a "major player," or a fad ... doesn't affect the lunch I will have.

I have my own biases and preconceptions about why I think D&D has long-dominated the TTRPG market which I have discussed at length- some of the reasons are path dependency, "legacy" (loosely defined), network effects, the campaign (along with "zero to hero" or the Diablo effect), the "Cheesecake factory" (Arrow's theorem) effect, and ... the division of authority. All of these factors can play into each other, but the division of authority is a big one. In other words, D&D is a game that allows mixed groups of players, many with little or no knowledge and many with little or no enthusiasm to play together, so long as you have a single person that knows the rules and keeps things on track. That also has drawbacks, but (IMO- this is not gospel) it's one of the reasons that D&D tends to have a dominant position, while other VERY VERY VERY good games that cater to other audiences don't have the same market.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how Daggerheart, which is backed by a major player in the industry and is benefitting from good publicity, does! It arguably has a lot of the design features that allow D&D to be so commercially successful that I outlined above- but not all of them. The success (or lack thereof) of Daggerheart in the next few years might tell us a lot about what the mass market (ahem) for TTRPGs wants, and, perhaps, if it has changed in the last few years.

In other words- is Daggerheart going to keep building on the momentum it has gained? Is it appealing to a crowd that is craving something different (a newer, younger crowd)? Or will it hit a ceiling / time limit (fad) and peter out as many prior games have before?

I don't know. But I think it's possible to have reasonable conversations about it.

Finally, I will reiterate that it should be possible to discuss whether or not Daggerheart is successful commercially and have that be a SEPARATE conversation than whether it is a great TTRPG. A lot of the games I love best are ones that never appealed to the majority of gamers ... and that's okay!
I am not convinced that there IS a "mass market" for TTRPGs outside of D&D -- and that I basically attribute to inertia. RPGs are cool, fun games that lots of people are likely to try and maybe even stick with for a while. But I think the dedicated 40 year fan is the rarity. D&D is the kleenex of TTRPGs so, when new players want to give the hobby a try, they (generally) try D&D.
 

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