Thanks. This was very helpful. Using the opponent's level to set the DC sounds like a very cool solution. I'll still ponder the limit of once per encounter. Because as you say, I don't want tricks to get old.
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Acrobatics
- Thread starter Mengu
- Start date
Thanks. This was very helpful. Using the opponent's level to set the DC sounds like a very cool solution. I'll still ponder the limit of once per encounter. Because as you say, I don't want tricks to get old.
mattdm
First Post
In addition to the good stuff above, I'd add: the acrobatic stunt thing implies to me some sort of cool use of the environment. Swinging from a vine, catapulting off a springboard, etc. If it's just "I'm in the middle of the battlefield and I want to get past those guys", I'd set the DC much harder.
nittanytbone
First Post
I would certainly allow the rogue to use Acrobatics to move through an opponent's square. Just like a fighter could use Athletics to LEAP over an opponent (if they were good enough or terrain permitted, obviously).
This movement would definitely provoke OA as normal and the rogue would get their Artful Dodger bonus as is usual.
Two ways to resolve:
1) Roll vs. the DC in the DMG. The Level of the DC is the same as the level of the monster.
2) Roll vs. the monster's REF defense (perhaps REF + 2 or 3 if you want to adjust the difficulty).
If the rogue succeeds, they may treat the opponent as difficult terrain and move through their square. They will provoke an OA unless they have sufficient squares of shifting to shift through all threatened squares.
If the rogue fails, then their movement stops. They may use another move action to continue moving or try again.
This movement would definitely provoke OA as normal and the rogue would get their Artful Dodger bonus as is usual.
Two ways to resolve:
1) Roll vs. the DC in the DMG. The Level of the DC is the same as the level of the monster.
2) Roll vs. the monster's REF defense (perhaps REF + 2 or 3 if you want to adjust the difficulty).
If the rogue succeeds, they may treat the opponent as difficult terrain and move through their square. They will provoke an OA unless they have sufficient squares of shifting to shift through all threatened squares.
If the rogue fails, then their movement stops. They may use another move action to continue moving or try again.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Corollary - as a DM, since I like acrobatic stunts, I'm going to be fairly accommodating when it comes to answering questions like "Is there a vine?" or "How springy does that bench look?"
-Hyp.
burntgerbil
Explorer
I foresee our group requiring each stunt to be unique and necessary - certainly not usable every turn - that takes the cinematic quality away from it. Perhaps the same stunt only once an encounter.
LightPhoenix
First Post
I just want to chime in and say that, thus far, my DM has generally ruled that any stunt I try to emulate Athletics is fine. For example, if dodging a trap calls for Athletics, I can try an Acrobatics check to get over it. I'm not currently trained in the skill, but I plan to pick that up with my next feat so as to ameliorate my character's wonderful luck with falling.
I'm going to take the opposing view:
If you succeed at an Acrobatics/Athletics stunt you MAY actually avoid the opportunity attack. With certain limitations.
The fact that there is a power that gives a similar ability is irrelevant (imho). There are also powers that give a bonus to jumping - does that mean my character can't jump? There is no prohibition against duplicating a power with a stunt.
But you do need to be careful the stunt doesn't make the power obsolete. And as long as you are careful in what you allow, I don't see that as a problem.
The key is the difficulty (trying to avoid an opportunity attack is a 'hard' task,if you use the pre-errata table on page 42 or an epic difficulty task, if you use the post-errata table. And naturally it requires that the character be skilled in the task.
And I would only allow a particular approach to avoid an Opportunity attack once per encounter (once they have seen you do it, you no longer catch them unawares and they are ready for you. You can still make the move on a successful roll, but you suffer an OA for the attempt).
For example: Acrobatics to somersault over the opponent (medium or smaller) might require two squares of movement before the stunt (similar to a jump), would have a DC of 20 vs. a level 1 opponent, and if you fail you fall prone in front of the target. But if you succeed, you can get past the opponent without suffering an OA. Optionally: If you defeat a slightly lower DC (15? 17?) you succeed in the move, but are subject to an OA taken just before you enter the NPCs square.
For example: Acrobatics to roll past an opponent (not through an occupied square) does not require any additional movement but restricts the character to two squares of movement during the turn. A successful check (DC 20 at 1st level) results in their moving past the opponent, a failed check results in their lying prone in the first of the two squares to which they were moving. Optionally: If you defeat a slightly lower DC (15) you end up in the square to which you were moving but the opponent gets an Opportunity Attack (and you grant combat advantage during that attack).
Carl
If you succeed at an Acrobatics/Athletics stunt you MAY actually avoid the opportunity attack. With certain limitations.
The fact that there is a power that gives a similar ability is irrelevant (imho). There are also powers that give a bonus to jumping - does that mean my character can't jump? There is no prohibition against duplicating a power with a stunt.
But you do need to be careful the stunt doesn't make the power obsolete. And as long as you are careful in what you allow, I don't see that as a problem.
The key is the difficulty (trying to avoid an opportunity attack is a 'hard' task,if you use the pre-errata table on page 42 or an epic difficulty task, if you use the post-errata table. And naturally it requires that the character be skilled in the task.
And I would only allow a particular approach to avoid an Opportunity attack once per encounter (once they have seen you do it, you no longer catch them unawares and they are ready for you. You can still make the move on a successful roll, but you suffer an OA for the attempt).
For example: Acrobatics to somersault over the opponent (medium or smaller) might require two squares of movement before the stunt (similar to a jump), would have a DC of 20 vs. a level 1 opponent, and if you fail you fall prone in front of the target. But if you succeed, you can get past the opponent without suffering an OA. Optionally: If you defeat a slightly lower DC (15? 17?) you succeed in the move, but are subject to an OA taken just before you enter the NPCs square.
For example: Acrobatics to roll past an opponent (not through an occupied square) does not require any additional movement but restricts the character to two squares of movement during the turn. A successful check (DC 20 at 1st level) results in their moving past the opponent, a failed check results in their lying prone in the first of the two squares to which they were moving. Optionally: If you defeat a slightly lower DC (15) you end up in the square to which you were moving but the opponent gets an Opportunity Attack (and you grant combat advantage during that attack).
Carl
I try to keep two key things in mind:
1. Consider existing rules, but use Acrobatics in place of Whatever when making the check. If the check also requires a feat or power, then failure should have some additional downside.
2. Most of the time, players are happy just getting a +2 bonus to something. They don't necessarily need their acrobatic stunt to be an awesome encounter-breaking super-power. They just want to feel that their attempts are making a difference.
Examples:
I wouldn't allow someone to use Acrobatics to avoid opportunity attacks, because that overlaps with Tumble, a powerful encounter ability. But I would allow them to use Acrobatics to get a +2 bonus to AC and Reflex against any opportunity attacks provoked by their movement. But wait -- to balance this against Defensive Mobility, I'd say that if they fail the check, they take a -2 penalty to AC and Reflex (so it's a gamble on their part). I'd probably make the DC equal to the Reflex of each monster they are moving past -- any whose Reflex they beat, they get a +2 bonus against that enemy's OAs, and any whose Reflex they miss, they suffer the -2 penalty.
For cartwheeling past someone, I'd consider whether it were possible to make a running jump to leap clear over the enemy. If so, I'd let them make an Acrobatics check instead, to tumble past. No running start would be required, but if they fail, they fall prone.
That's just how I'd do it.
-- 77IM
1. Consider existing rules, but use Acrobatics in place of Whatever when making the check. If the check also requires a feat or power, then failure should have some additional downside.
2. Most of the time, players are happy just getting a +2 bonus to something. They don't necessarily need their acrobatic stunt to be an awesome encounter-breaking super-power. They just want to feel that their attempts are making a difference.
Examples:
I wouldn't allow someone to use Acrobatics to avoid opportunity attacks, because that overlaps with Tumble, a powerful encounter ability. But I would allow them to use Acrobatics to get a +2 bonus to AC and Reflex against any opportunity attacks provoked by their movement. But wait -- to balance this against Defensive Mobility, I'd say that if they fail the check, they take a -2 penalty to AC and Reflex (so it's a gamble on their part). I'd probably make the DC equal to the Reflex of each monster they are moving past -- any whose Reflex they beat, they get a +2 bonus against that enemy's OAs, and any whose Reflex they miss, they suffer the -2 penalty.
For cartwheeling past someone, I'd consider whether it were possible to make a running jump to leap clear over the enemy. If so, I'd let them make an Acrobatics check instead, to tumble past. No running start would be required, but if they fail, they fall prone.
That's just how I'd do it.
-- 77IM
Nail
First Post
I don't think it's tough at all.
You should NOT allow a use of a skill to mimic a power. Allowing Acrobatics to negate OAs is a mistake --> powers do this already.
Don't make Acrobatics the new Intimidate.
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