AD&D is not "rules light"

[Piratecat]

You'll have to excuse Doug, everybody. Guzzling Irn-Bru sometimes does this to people.

 

[billd91]

Change the grappling rules to the excellent 1e system? Changed! Nothing else is affected.

I believe this is the first time I've ever heard 1e's grappling rules called excellent. I hope you are not referring to the rules in the 1e DMG, because if you are, you are clearly drunk, sir!

 

[Bullgrit]

I have heard this a number of times and believe the argument makes no sense. If you could hack off weird rules in 1e and proceed by DM fiat/house rule, you can in 3e as well. There is NO difference except in perception.

I always think the same thing when I see those kinds of comments.

Bullgrit

 

[ExploderWizard]

Do they?

Feats? Goodbye! Okay so the fighter now sucks even more than before, but if I cared about balance why am I removing feats? I *want* casters to pwn fighters because I'm a nerd who got bullied by jocks at school.

You know that the old school rules reflects that reality very well. The jocks (fighters) have easy progression in low levels (high school) while the nerds (wizards) have a tough time and need more xp.

Later in life the jocks (fighters) have boring hum-drum lives while the nerds (wizards) are chillin with high paying geek jobs/trophy wives (ultimate power).

 

[Dausuul]

I have heard this a number of times and believe the argument makes no sense. If you could hack off weird rules in 1e and proceed by DM fiat/house rule, you can in 3e as well. There is NO difference except in perception.

Okay. Explain to me how you would throw out the following? And remember, I'm talking about throwing out here, not house-ruling. This isn't where you replace a rule you don't like with a rule you do. This is where you simply ignore a rule you don't like, without it having a massive effect on gameplay.

• Grappling rules. (Keep in mind that the Monster Manual is loaded with monsters that have improved grab.)
• Ability score damage and the resulting cascade of effects. (Ditto poison.)
• Iterative attacks where you subtract 5 each time.
• Feats.
• Skill points.

That's just off the top of my head. I could probably come up with others after some thought.

Once again, you may not replace any of these with anything. You have to chop them off and play with the bloody stump. And the game still has to play just as smoothly, and all the base classes and most of the monsters have to work just as well, without them.

 

[Doug McCrae]

This is where you simply ignore a rule you don't like, without it having a massive effect on gameplay.

Changing grappling and ability damage doesn't, it just weakens some monsters. Tbh grappling monsters were overpowered anyway so that's a good thing, not game breaking at all.

Yes, removing iterative attacks and feats, and to a lesser extent skills, has a big effect on class balance. But presumably that's exactly what I want.

You can make analogous changes to pre-3e editions that will have a similarly huge effect on class balance:
No metal armor or weapons. (Dark Sun)
Casting times multiplied by ten. (A Mighty Fortress)
Remove multiple attacks for high level or weapon specialised PCs.
No healing magic.
Weapons deal quadruple damage.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Once again, you may not replace any of these with anything. You have to chop them off and play with the bloody stump.

Many houserules to pre-3e games would have trouble with that requirement, such as changing the initiative system.

 

[Dyson Logos]

I'm actually playing in a 1e "by the book" campaign right now and it's interesting. Thank goodness two of us have copies of the "Combat Computer" wheel-type-thing from Dragon Magazine to handle the attack rolls. And this is definitely the first game I've ever played that actually used segments in combat.

 

[Doug McCrae]

You'll have to excuse Doug, everybody. Guzzling Irn-Bru sometimes does this to people.

Scotland is the only place in the world where Coca-Cola isn't the top selling soft drink.

 

[Dausuul]

Changing grappling and ability damage doesn't, it just weakens some monsters. Tbh grappling monsters were overpowered anyway so that's a good thing, not game breaking at all.

Setting aside for now the question of grappling balance, you just wiped all poisonous monsters and traps from the game.

Yes, removing iterative attacks and feats, and to a lesser extent skills, has a big effect on class balance. But presumably that's exactly what I want.

No, the goal is not to change class balance (especially not in the direction of making fighters and rogues weaker!). The goal is to slice out chunks of the rules that add a lot of complexity to the game, without having to replace them.

Now, there were certainly complex rules in 1E/2E that couldn't simply be excised. Spellcasting comes to mind. But 3E added whole new layers of integrated rules... while making the old stuff, like spellcasting, even more complicated.