AD&D: There and Back Again - a Role-Player's Tale

But the stated rule for handling an animal was already stated in the rules for the Druid, Paladin, and Cleric classes. There is no need to make up another rule because, as Gygax states, There will be times in which the rules do not cover a specific action that a player will attempt.

In this circumstance, the rules CLEARLY state who can and who cannot handle animals.
Why do you assume that speaking to an animal (something which you CANNOT do with the Handle Animal skill) is the same thing as training an animal to do specific things (which is not something you can necessarily do just by speaking to it, and something people do IRL all the time without actually being able to speak to animals)?

3E druids and clerics still have magic that allow them to speak to animals, that hasn't changed. What has changed is that 3E provided very specific rules to cover how a character can train an animal, even if he can't speak to it. AD&D does not have rules to cover this territory, so the DM has to wing it.
 

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But the stated rule for handling an animal was already stated in the rules for the Druid, Paladin, and Cleric classes. There is no need to make up another rule because, as Gygax states, There will be times in which the rules do not cover a specific action that a player will attempt.

In this circumstance, the rules CLEARLY state who can and who cannot handle animals.

This forum needs a facepalm smiley in the worst way.
 

[MENTION=59785]lumin[/MENTION] Please provide a page reference in the AD&D DMG where it states that if a character attempts something not covered by the rules, the DM should simply disallow it. You have claimed this, and the only quote provided so far shows the opposite advice (improvise).
 

So the rules state that the DC for opening a lock "varies". In AD&D, the DC for opening a lock does NOT vary.

Which edition is more free-wheeled and which is more strict?

Actually, that is untrue. There are many examples in 1e modules where a lock changes the chance for opening it, applying either a bonus to the roll or a penalty.

Some of these adventures were penned by the author of the rules.


RC
 

Actually, that is untrue. There are many examples in 1e modules where a lock changes the chance for opening it, applying either a bonus to the roll or a penalty.

Some of these adventures were penned by the author of the rules.


RC

The point is that there was a very specific rule for that. In 3E there wasn't. It was D20 vs DC modifier that the DM caters for the situation.

This all comes back to the D20 core system that I'm trying to make my point with. The system was designed from the ground up to allow DM's to have a lot of flexibility on what DC they wanted to choose. Sure there were plenty of tables that "outlined" example situations, but none of them were strict.

In 1E, the rules were set in stone, mostly on % tables. After the fact, Gygax states that when situations are NOT covered by rules, that the DM make it up.

This is practically the reverse in 3E. The rules STARTED with the idea that DMs had a lot of flexibility in how they determined DC targets.
 

...and this goes along with the evolution of the game. WoTC saw that people were just going to house rule the system anyway, so they decided to make it easier to do so by giving the DMs softer DC rules.

They decided that players wanted more freeform play, so they came up with the D20 system that could be very flexible with nearly every class/race combination in the game.

This is simply not so in 1E. 1E (and you can throw 0E and 2E in there as well) was envisioned in the beginning to be "tight", designed for tournament play. Gygax, unfortunately abandoned this idea as everyone started to house rule over his rules anyway.

I'm not saying that one system is any better than the other at all. Obviously, WoTC wouldn't have changed the formula up if people hadn't been playing it that way. I'm just saying that it is a myth that AD&D was "freewheeling crazyville". It's a very strict system when taken alone, even if the players didn't run it like that.

I personally love the stricter rules.
 
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The point is that there was a very specific rule for that. In 3E there wasn't. It was D20 vs DC modifier that the DM caters for the situation.
Where is the difference? In AD&D it's d% versus a target number that is often arbitrarily adjusted (this lock is so good it's at -20% to be picked).

In 3E, the DM picks the quality of the lock (from among three choices), and that sets the DC. These situations are remarkably similar.

Sure there were plenty of tables that "outlined" example situations, but none of them were strict.
You keep saying this, but it's only so true that's it's also true in AD&D. That is, the DM is free to change the numbers if he sees fit, in both editions. It's just that in 3E, there are many more situations where there are baseline numbers provided for the DM.

In 1E, the rules were set in stone, mostly on % tables. After the fact, Gygax states that when situations are NOT covered by rules, that the DM make it up.
What do you mean "after the fact". I believe the AD&D DMG is a pretty good authority on the rules of AD&D, and it provides guidelines for what to do when a situation is not covered by the table: improvise something.

You still haven't shown where in that DMG it states that any action not covered by a table should be summarily disallowed.
 

Let me show you some examples of the differences between 1st and 3rd Editions. Regardless of how people "played" the game, these are stated in the rulebook.

AD&D (An example of a Character at level 1):

Opening a Door: 1d6 vs 2
Bend Bars: 1d100 vs 10
Picking a Pocket*: 1d100 vs 30
Open Lock*: 1d100 vs 25
Find/Remove Trap*: 1d100 vs 20
Move Silently*: 1d100 vs 15
Hide in Shadows*: 1d100 vs 10
Hear Noise*: 1d100 vs 10
Climb Walls*: 1d100 vs 85
Read Languages*: 1d100 vs NEVER (at lvl 1)
Surprised: 1d6 vs 2

* These skills can never be attempted by any other class that is not a Thief or Assassin. Again, there is NO place in the PHB or DMG that describes how another class can attempt Thief skills if he is not a Thief or Assassin. Anyone that says otherwise is making it up.


3rd Edition (an example of a character at any level):

Opening a Door: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Bend Bars: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Picking a Pocket**: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Open Lock**: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Find/Remove Trap**: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Move Silently**: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Hide in Shadows**: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Hear Noise**: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Climb Walls**: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Read Languages: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
Surprises enemy: D20 vs free-wheeled DC
...
ANY CHALLENGE: D20 vs free-wheeled DC

** Any class under the sun can attempt these.

Notice how each AD&D DC number is a HARD number, not a SOFT number like 3rd Edition. In AD&D They have to be met exactly as stated under the rules of the book for a character to succeed.

You can explain until you're blue in the face that 3rd edition has a metric ton more of tacked-on rules for skills, feats, and combat, but when we're talking explicitly about the "Dice vs Difficulty Class" (and the driving engine of any RPG), AD&D was far stricter.

This is just a small example. I could paste up many more tables showing how AD&D was strict and 3rd Edition is far more free-wheeled. A DM house-ruling things is all well and good and perfectly acceptable, but I'm talking about what is written in the books.

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt about much of your perspective about 1e vs 3e, up to a point. But there comes a point when you become simply factually incorrect.

In 1e, Hear Noise is not at all limited to thieves and assassins. It's a thief skill but that's mainly because they're the only class in 1e that gets better at it not because nobody else can do it. See page 60 of the DMG.

Characters of other classes, such as halflings and elves, can move silently without being thieves or assassins as well. In fact, that halfling fighter in leather armor is much better at sneaking around than the low-level thief. See pages 16-17 of the PH. I won't even get into elven boots.

But this isn't to say that other classes have particularly significant ability to do some of these things across the board. Rather, I'm trying to point out that 1e has general rules and plenty of exceptions, too many to be so glib about the way character classes are expected to be played.

You are also simply mistaken about the use of many 3e skills and checks. Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Listen, Spot, and other skill checks have a DC determined by an opposing check, not just a free-wheeling number arbitrarily set by the DM. Other skills like Open locks may not actually be tried by just anyone, but may only be tried by a character trained in the skills. Granted, any character can learn those skills, but it's the rogues who typically have the easiest time at it in the various iterations of 3e, 3.5e, PF, and 4e.

Other checks you list are as mistaken as the ones I mention above. Breaking down a simple door has a DC of 13. Bending iron bars - DC 24. Lifting a gate - DC 25. None of those values are any bit more (or less) free-wheeling than those in 1e.

The question of whether a 1e game or a 3e game is more free wheeling is a judgment call. But if your approach to 1e is defined along such rigid use of rules and tables as you suggest above, how does a character go foraging for food? Fishing? Hunting? Climbing trees or mountains? How about getting caught in a lie by a suspicious guardsman at the gate? 1e has plenty of areas of adventuring life NOT covered by any rules, whereas many of these are touched upon in 3e. That's a significant reason 1e is considered more free-wheeling than 3e - there are large gaps in the rules in which DMs must adjudicate the results of PC decisions on the fly without defined rules. Some DMs thrive on that, some don't. I don't think either game is necessarily better than the other as a result, just different. But you have a highly idiosyncratic interpretation of the difference between the two games.
 

...and this goes along with the evolution of the game. WoTC saw that people were just going to house rule the system anyway, so they decided to make it easier to do so by giving the DMs softer DC rules.

They decided that players wanted more freeform play, so they came up with the D20 system that could be very flexible with nearly every class/race combination in the game.
They did? Can you offer any proof of this, or is it just an assumption on your part?

3E is definitely more flexible in terms of race/class combos etc, but that's not what we're talking about. You've been talking about encounter resolution only.

I'm just saying that it is a myth that AD&D was "freewheeling crazyville". It's a very strict system when taken alone, even if the players didn't run it like that.
You've been saying that the AD&D rules for encounter resolution are more strict than 3E, specifically. AD&D can be a strict system, relative to most other systems, and still be freewheeling compared to 3E.

And really we've really only been talking about skills so far. Would you like to get in to the two combat systems and see which one is stricter, rules-wise?
 

Actually the rule for handling animal is defined in 1E, but they were extremely strict on who could use them.

Druids:
In connection with their nature worship, druids have certain innate powers
which are gained at higher level. At 3rd level (Initiate of the 1st Circle), a
druid gains the following obilities:
1. ldentificotion of plant type
2. Identification of animal type
...
The ability to speak with animals as druids do which begins at
3rd level of experience.


Paladin
At 4th level - or at any time thereafter - the paladin may
call for his warhorse;

Clerics:
See Speak With Animals Spell

So again, here is another example of how 1E is far stricter with handling animals. Only certain classes could do it at certain levels or with spell. On the other hand, 3E handed the skill out like candy.

Your assertion that in 1e anything not specifically allowed is forbidden is not supported by an objective reading of the rules.
 

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