AD&D weapon speed vs 5e turn based combat?

[MGibster]

One of the great things in 1e/2e was weapon speed/factor which was added to the initiative roll.

I always thought weapon speeds were both cumbersome, made very little sense, and just made combat less fun. Having to factor in weapon speed every time we rolled for initiative, which was every round back then for my group at least, just slowed things down. And it just doesn't make sense. Let's take a look at two weapons and their speeds.

Halberd - WS 9
Dagger - WS 2

I know everyone might be thinking, "Of course a dagger is faster than a halberd." Okay, that might be true. But if you're armed with a halberd and I'm armed with a dagger which one of us is going to get hit first? I am because you're going to have the opportunity stab, hammer, or slice me long before I get close enough to stab you with my tiny dagger. The halberd should have a higher weapon speed to represent the advantage of reach.

WS was an interesting idea that was poorly implemented.

 

[nevin]

One of the great things in 1e/2e was weapon speed/factor which was added to the initiative roll.
In those days you would decide what to do each round first, resolve initiative adding the weapon speed or spell casting time to the init roll and then do it on your turn.
This made for both a wonderfully chaotic battle and added depth to the decision making of choosing fast weapons and quick spells (which interrupt spell casting).

However in 5e there is something to be said for streamlining combat by not having to wait for everyone to decide on their action (before a round can start).
Each person resolves their turn then can sleep until their turn is up again.

Or did that create an environment less engaging?
I certainly remember in AD&D combat was very much a "all hands on deck" scenario with people coordinating their moves.
The downside was that it didn't really account well for a changing battle.

Do you think there is a "best of both worlds" combat sequence? If so what would it look like?

AD&D 1e the difference in initiative determined how many "FULL ROUND" melee attacks the melee types got on you. I don't remember the limit but I do remember that it was a reason a lot of rangers and rogues used light armor and weapons. three rounds of full melee in a surprise round was brutal. I've seen both DM baddies and whole parties drop in the surprise round under those rules. 2e it just gave you an initiative bonus or penalty effectively.

 

[cavetroll]

AD&D 1e the difference in initiative determined how many "FULL ROUND" melee attacks the melee types got on you. I don't remember the limit but I do remember that it was a reason a lot of rangers and rogues used light armor and weapons. three rounds of full melee in a surprise round was brutal. I've seen both DM baddies and whole parties drop in the surprise round under those rules. 2e it just gave you an initiative bonus or penalty effectively.

I've never heard of that rule. 1e/2e that we played there was a surprise round with one round of attacks, though I don't recall surprise being that common.

 

[cavetroll]

WS was an interesting idea that was poorly implemented.

Yeah I'm trying to think of a good implementation, but does seem to run into issues in implementation.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Initiative was a d10. If you rolled over a ten (die roll plus weapon speed) you didn't get to go in the current round; your total rolled over.

But "natural weapons" from most monsters, had a Speed Factor of plus zero.

That meant most monsters attacked more often than PC's. My players really, really didn't enjoy that.

 

[cavetroll]

Initiative was a d10. If you rolled over a ten (die roll plus weapon speed) you didn't get to go in the current round; your total rolled over.

But "natural weapons" from most monsters, had a Speed Factor of plus zero.

That meant most monsters attacked more often than PC's. My players really, really didn't enjoy that.

That sounds like an evil home brew rule.

 

[TarionzCousin]

That sounds like an evil home brew rule.

No. Per 2E DMG if I recall correctly.

We were teenagers; we followed all the rules.

 

[Sir Brennen]

That sounds like an evil home brew rule.

It was actually one of the three options for initiative outlined in 2nd Edition. One option was for the group to roll a d10, so one number for everyone, then weapon and spell speed factors were added to that to determine final order. I’m not sure about the “rolling over” bit, because I don’t think there was an upper limit to init.

Another option was the more common practice of everyone rolling their own initiative (still d10) then adding speed factors.

Note speed factors were also optional in 2e.

Multiple attacks were handled a little differently. All characters get their first attacks in initiative order. Then everyone with a second attack went, still in order. Then third attacks, if any. That might be where Nevin got the impression of a “full round” being like three normal rounds for surprise.

 

[cavetroll]

No. Per 2E DMG if I recall correctly.

We were teenagers; we followed all the rules.

It was actually one of the three options for initiative outlined in 2nd Edition. One option was for the group to roll a d10, so one number for everyone, then weapon and spell speed factors were added to that to determine final order. I’m not sure about the “rolling over” bit, because I don’t think there was an upper limit to init.

Another option was the more common practice of everyone rolling their own initiative (still d10) then adding speed factors.

Note speed factors were also optional in 2e.

Multiple attacks were handled a little differently. All characters get their first attacks in initiative order. Then everyone with a second attack went, still in order. Then third attacks, if any. That might be where Nevin got the impression of a “full round” being like three normal rounds for surprise.

Yeah we used d10+ speed factors, the rolling over to the next round was the piece that is not in the 2e Dmg, I would have remembered that, because that would change everything. I have a 2e handbook I don't see anything for rollover.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Yeah we used d10+ speed factors, the rolling over to the next round was the piece that is not in the 2e Dmg, I would have remembered that, because that would change everything. I have a 2e handbook I don't see anything for rollover.

That may have been from 1e, where rounds were further subdivided into segments, and there were only 10 segments in a round, so init + speed factor could roll over if they were higher than 10.

Also, in 1E “total surprise” (as opposed to just “surprise”) allowed missile fire to be performed at triple rate, so Nevin might not have been totally off on that.