AD&D1 "CRs" for AD&D1 demons and devils

[Quasqueton]

If we were to translate the Challenge Rating concept to AD&D1, what CR would the AD&D1 MM demons and devils be? At what levels could a standard AD&D1 party of 4 [assume fighter, magic-user, cleric, thief] defeat these BBEGs?

Asmodeus = AD&D1 CR what?

Dispater = AD&D1 CR what?

Demigorgon = AD&D1 CR what?

Orcus = AD&D1 CR what?

[Yes, I know AD&D1 had a similar, though much less specific, level estimate for creatures. Demon lords and arch devils could be found on Level X dungeon charts.]

Quasqueton

 

[Shade]

That's a tough one, since 1E also lacked "wealth by level" guidelines, so magic gear varied wildly, and the classes weren't exactly balanced with one another at similar high levels.

 

[Rhun]

That's a tough one, since 1E also lacked "wealth by level" guidelines, so magic gear varied wildly, and the classes weren't exactly balanced with one another at similar high levels.

Also add to this that 20th level AD&D characters were much weaker than a 20th level 3.X character. I'll have to get home and take a look at my Monster Manual before I can give you my guess, though...can't remember the AD&D stats off the top of my head.

 

[Mirtek]

Also note that the advancement rules were very different in 1e, there came the point when the next level simply meant less and less in terms of power.

The relative power difference between levels tends to lessen dramatically as the levels increase. The cleric, magic-user, and illusionist all reach the limit of the number of spells they can memorise at a time at 29th-level. Above 19th-level for clerics and 21st-level for magic-users and illusionists, there is no further decrease in number to hit AC0 (THAC0) or in saving throws. The cleric gets 2 more hp/level and the magic-user or illusionist gets 1 more hp/level and that’s all. That means a 100th-level cleric differs from a 29th-level cleric by a theoretical maximum of 142 hit points, and by nothing else. Now, 142 extra hit points is nice, but against the level of opponents a 100th-level cleric is liable to face, it is not a huge protection. Fighters can get huge hit point bonuses, but their lack of spell abilities or other special talents still keep them loosely within the bounds of reason, since their THAC0 and saving throws top out at level 17. Thief ability increases stop at 17th-level (23rd for thief-acrobat), and the THAC0 and saving throws do not improve past 21st-level.

While in 3.Xe a 100th level cleric would have 71d8+Con-Mod, +36 BAB and +35 to all saves and (most important) +71 casterlevel if compared to a 29th level cleric, all this wasn't the case in 1e, it really were "just 142 hp"

Annother interesting quote ist this one, from the introduction of 1e Deities and Demigods:

This volume is something else, also: our last attempt to reach the "Monty Hall" DM's. Perhaps now some of the 'giveaway' campaigns will look as foolish as they truly are. This is our last attempt to delineate the absurdity of 40+ level characters. When Odin, the All-Father has only(?) 300 hit points, who can take a 44th level Lord seriously?

 

[gizmo33]

I would go with the "intent of the designer" here rather than try to deduce it from the actual stats given, because IMO the history of the ADnD game includes hold-overs from Classic DnD power levels, as well as ost-UA power levels which are total different beasts. I don't think there was nearly the "quality-control" regarding power levels in the old days, and many powers were probably ad-libbed on the spot - meaning that what the DM intended probably had a greater effect than an official write-up of the stats.

Does ADnD1 mean pre Unearthed Arcana? Does it mean D&DG powers for lesser deities, or Greyhawk-style powers?

Your idea about the encounter charts probably gives the closest "universal" answer that anyone can probably come up with on this question. I don't think level 10 dungeon means level 10 characters - I need to consult my DMG to remember how it worked.

(Going over the Gygax's thread and asking what levels the demon princes were designed to challenge might be another idea).

 

[gizmo33]

Also note that the advancement rules were very different in 1e, there came the point when the next level simply meant less and less in terms of power.

But IMO Throne of Bloodstone levels were less about suggesting what level Orcus was a challenge, and more about designing an adventure that would challenge ultra-high level characters. The difference is that the latter involves a city of 100 liches, if you see what I mean. The challenge level for defeating 100 liches or a squadron of 600 Type I demons is not really in the same ballpark as Orcus.

It's hard for me to imagine Orcus being a challenge to characters beyond 15th level even in the stingiest ADnD game - and that range of levels the power progression is less flat - fighters are still gaining THAC0 (or the equiv), spell-casters are still gaining spell levels, and so on. So I'm not sure that the theories in Throne of Bloodstone would really apply to those levels that are likely candidates for an answer to Quasquenton's question.

That being said, IMO two CR 10 is not equal to CR 12 in ADnD, so if someone said "Orcus is a fair challenge for four 10th level characters" you couldn't extrapolate that in the same way as in 3E to other character levels.

 

[Melan]

Realistically, a six PC party around 6th to 8th level can try to take out lesser demons and expect to succeed. They don't have too many hit points, and although their resistances to spells make dealing with them problematic on some occasions. Demon lords could probably be encountered and defeated in 10th to 12th level games, probably, given good circumstances... but I don't have any firsthand experience about that.

It has to be kept in mind that in AD&D, especially non-Realms AD&D, a 9th level character was at the top of the heap. The monsters in EGG's Monster Manual cap at that power range... even large ancient red dragons can be tackled and done away with.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I think if a largish party (say 6-8 characters) could reasonably expect to take on Lolth at 12th level (D3), then you should scale it from there, using her as the baseline.

That said, I remember pushing the limits of the game (we called it 'scabby' DnD, before the word 'munchkin' had been heard). By 20th level, a party of four could comfortably take on any archdevil or demon prince - including moderate support in the form of a few pit fiends - and wipe the floor.

 

[Hussar]

Queen of the Demon Web Pits is 10th-14th IIRC and it includes Lloth as well as any number of demons, dragons and other chewy goodness.

Using 1e characters, without the UA, I would peg any of the demon lords at around CR 15 ish.

Note something though. Design was based around 6-8 PC's, not 4.

 

[Melan]

Using 1e characters, without the UA, I would peg any of the demon lords at around CR 15 ish.

Note something though. Design was based around 6-8 PC's, not 4.

That's very relevant. A party with six to eight PCs has a completely different dynamic than one with only four. From tactical possibilities to the role of "backup" when someone bites the dust, they have a much easier time.