AD&D1 "CRs" for AD&D1 demons and devils

My reason for asking this question comes from seeing all the complaints about how the current-edition demon lords are too low CR. In AD&D1, the demon lords were not "godly" in power -- not even close. I could see Demigorgon or Orcus being killed by ~15th-level PCs.

Yes, they were near the very top of the monster scale, probably second only to the actual gods, but they were not at all near what we would consider "epic" now. At least two official adventure modules pitted the PCs against *godly* demons (Zuggtmoy, and Lolth) before level 15, with the idea that the PCs would defeat them.

So I'm just wondering when did the attitude come about that demon lords and arch devils are supposed to be epic* level challenges?

Quasqueton

* I'm using the current concept of epic = level 21+
 

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Quasqueton said:
So I'm just wondering when did the attitude come about that demon lords and arch devils are supposed to be epic* level challenges?

Well, in the OD&D Immortals set, they were very "epic".
In the 1E DDG, it was suggested they have godlike power.
In the 1E MotP, they gained godlike powers.

And so on.
 

Melan said:
It has to be kept in mind that in AD&D, especially non-Realms AD&D, a 9th level character was at the top of the heap. The monsters in EGG's Monster Manual cap at that power range... even large ancient red dragons can be tackled and done away with.

So would you say that a 10th level 1e character was, in that sense, equivalent to a 20th level 3.5e character?
 

Quasqueton said:
So I'm just wondering when did the attitude come about that demon lords and arch devils are supposed to be epic* level challenges?

* I'm using the current concept of epic = level 21+

Because, in D&D 3.5, balors and pit fiends are 20th level challenges.
 


I think in terms of play time required to acchieve specific levels a level 14 character in 1e would definitely be in excess of 20th level even though they wouldn't have access to higher level spells.

Remember that after Lord level was acchieve (roughly 9th for most classes) the amount of XP required to increase in level went up rather dramatically while the maximum XP award really didn't.

A 3e or 3.5e game can safely assume to reach 20th level within a much shorter time frame than a 1e would hit 12th-14th level.

Of course most DMs began to fudge the advancement rate to accomodate high level play.
 

Relevant data:
- 1E characters were much weaker than same-level 3E characters.
- 1E parties were assumed to be about 8 people or so (6-10 in most modules).
- 1E demon & devil lords were in fact lesser gods (see 1E DDG), although admittedly module Q1 (p. 32) suggested the DM could ignore those divine powers if desired.
- 1E parties had no baseline magic-item wealth (although you could eyeball the intoduction to many modules for suggestions, those being pretty slim requirements).
- The statements in Module H4 should be rejected, because they're at odds with the core rules. The core PHB was silent on the issue of spells or attacks after level 30 or so -- it did NOT say that they stopped one way or the other (admittedly that's academic to this thread, the CR's aren't going to be 30+ in any case).

Otherwise, I'm forced to look at the same "Monster Level" data Quasqueston mentioned in post #1. Note the "Monster Levels" (DMG p. 174) are really based off XP value, and the XP levels go up by about x2 per level. Extrapolate 10k:10th level, 20k:11th, 40k:12th, 80k:13th.

Look up XP in DMG Appendix E and you get a suggestion of "Level XII" for all the demon/devils you mention (XP 48k - 74k). Which seems about right: bulk up with attendant demons and you can have a challenge for 14th, 16th, 18th level PCs or whatever.
 

Vuron said:
Remember that after Lord level was acchieve (roughly 9th for most classes) the amount of XP required to increase in level went up rather dramatically while the maximum XP award really didn't.

Actually, the XP progression after name level became linear (i.e., a fixed value for each additional level) rather than the exponential progression that characterized lower levels. (And, yes I've got my 1E PHB open in front of me.) So the XP curve flattened out at just about the same time the XP awards did.

Also keep in mind that 14th-level is where 90% of support for the system petered out, just as 20th level is a similar milestone in 3E. (There is no doubt that advancement to 9th - or 14th - level took much more time and effort in 1E than it takes to currently reach level 20, however; so it is kind of hard to make a direct comparison.)
 

Quasqueton said:
So I'm just wondering when did the attitude come about that demon lords and arch devils are supposed to be epic* level challenges?

* I'm using the current concept of epic = level 21+

I think that the current (FC1) levels would have been fine if the BoVD did not exist. But it does and that book established them as epic-like challenges.

Also, compare them with their dragon-kin: Bahamut and Tiamat. Bahamut and Tiamat had hit points around 200 IIRC, just like the highest demon/devil lords in 1E. Tiamat and Bahamut have around 1,000+ hp in 3E.
 

It's really more of a problem than just the BoVD. The real problem is that there is a wealth of contradictory precedent on the power of archfiends, and that people treat whatever precedent they feel like as "canon."

Others have (validly) stated that the notion of "CR" is a problematic one in 1e. However, one can reasonably talk about the kind of challenge that an archfiend as presented in the 1e MM would pose to a party of four 1e PCs. I'd say, on that basis (having, er, "playtested" the matter rather exhaustively in my younger days) that a party of 25th-level 1e PCs is quite capable of steamrolling Dispater, Geryon, Mammon, Belial, Juiblex, or Yeenoghu; Asmodeus, Demogorgon, Fraz'Urb'Luu, Graz'zt, Orcus, and Pazuzu (and to a lesser extent Mephistopheles, and an even [vastly] lesser extent Baalzebul) are harder. Orcus is actually easy due to his low hp, but try getting a player to put his character within melee range of the wand! Against a party with one or more +5 weapons, including a holy avenger and hammer of thunderbolts, and the insanely-high AC available to a fighter with +5 platemail and shield, plus a 25th-level wizard equipped with wish or time stop, any of the archfiends is toast. If the wizard can cast gate and summon a solar, the battle is a fait accompli, since none of the 1e archfiends is a match for such a creature.

Assuming, however, that the archfiend (per Deities and Demigods and Manual of the Planes) is treated as a lesser god AND is on its home plane, the battle gets much tougher. The fiend's hit points double, it gets access to some very powerful spell-like abilities, and it can summon allies with great alacrity. In essence, the fiend becomes equivalent to a 1e solar with (potentially) vastly greater hit points. Moreover, if the fiend has crafted a talisman, the PCs can't actually kill it; all they can do is prevent it from entering their home plane for 100 years or so.

So much for that. Of course, we now have the following to contend with:

1) The lesser god status granted to archfiends per Deities and Demigods. True, they have this, but archfiends (and Tiamat, Bahamut, and the couple of other entities sprinkling the MMs) are mechanically very weak for lesser gods. Only St. Cuthbert (who probably should be a demigod), Ralishaz, and a few demigods in DDG are on par with or mechanically weaker than the archfiends, even Asmo or Demo.

2) The "why don't the gods just kill the archfiends and take over?" argument that's advanced as a metasetting problem. This, incidentally, was constantly raised in Dragon magazine as early as I can remember. Gygax's solution was to just move all the deities out of the Nine Hells; the Abyss is plenty big enough for gods and demon princes alike.

As for the issue of high-level characters being much less likely in 1e: I'll sorta disagree. While it took *much* longer to advance in level in 1e than in 3e, there is full support for spellcasters up to 29th level, there is a Level X monster encounter table that features demon lords and archdevils, and there are XP awards for archfiends. I played PCs up to 30th level in 1e, and I know others who did also. There were NPCs of high levels as well; some of EGG's PCs were in the high teens, there was an archmage or two in the Greyhawk setting, and there was a demonstrated need for above-20th-level play as mentioned in the 1e gray box FR set, which featured above-20th-level NPCs.
 

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