Adamant Ventures 4th early as well

[Jack99]

They could lose control completely. IIRC, Kobolds are not in the SRD. Well Kobolds are a german myth. Guess what, Goodman and AE can have Kobolds in their adventures. Mind Flayers are just a Cthulhu knock-off. Cthulhu is now public domain. Guess what. AE and Goodman can have their own Cthulhu knock off in their adventures. How about adventures "in the Realms Forgotten by time"? Publishers played nice in 3E because they had a favorable, safe harbor environment to publish in. Now, publishers are making a business decision because Wizards took away the safe harbor.

Unless Wizards does something soon (like change the GSL, bigtime and quickly), companies could pretty much pick apart WotC's IP. This could extend beyond RPGs too. Imagine a Mind Flayer-esque creature in WoW? (Mind you, I'm not a WoW player so I don't know if there isn't one or not.)

You make it sound as if it extremely easy. I remain doubtful. If it was, someone would have gone for the jugular long ago, considering how big a marked share WoTC has.

Either way, without the D&D name on it, I am not sure things will sell so well. Don't get me wrong, I do (at least for now) plan to buy plenty of 3PP products. But I am not like the average gamer, and neither are you. I doubt AE and GG are known by 5% of D&D gamers, and that is being generous.

Anyway, thanks for the information. If you can provide some more, I would be thankful. I am curious as to how much one can do, (assuming they aren't using some sort of secret license) without breaking whatever laws it is that limit them (Copyright I assume?).

 

[Nightchilde-2]

I wonder how many publishers are going to produce material "usable with 4e"?

Something just occured to me. Maybe all the conspiracy theories are wrong and Adamant and Goodman just..y'know..asked nicely.

 

[dmccoy1693]

You make it sound as if it extremely easy.

Easy for a lawyer that specializes in that kind of stuff. I'm not a lawyer. I just know it is possible. Several companies did it with 2E D&D Material. Fighting this kind of stuff cost TSR quite a bit of money in legal fees.

 

[Jack99]

Easy for a lawyer that specializes in that kind of stuff. I'm not a lawyer. I just know it is possible. Several companies did it with 2E D&D Material. Fighting this kind of stuff cost TSR quite a bit of money in legal fees.

And TSR lost?

 

[ki11erDM]

The release of The Primal Order brought legal trouble with Palladium Books suing for references to their game and system. The suit was settled in 1993 by Wizards paying an undisclosed sum to Palladium and agreeing not to mention their products again.

So WoTC knows all about this type of thing...

 

[dmccoy1693]

And TSR lost?

Mayfair Games Is the only one I can find right now.

In 1993, Mayfair was sued by TSR, Inc., who argued that Mayfair's "Role Aids" line of game supplements, advertised as compatible with AD&D, violated their 1984 trademark agreement. While the court found that some of the line violated their trademark, the line as a whole did not violate the agreement[2], and Mayfair continued publishing the line until the rights were bought by TSR.

 

[Arnwyn]

Either way, without the D&D name on it, I am not sure things will sell so well.

Wasn't an issue back during 3e (in which things sold "well enough for them"), so I doubt the lack of some "D&D name" will be an issue now.

 

[Jack99]

Wasn't an issue back during 3e (in which things sold "well enough for them"), so I doubt the lack of some "D&D name" will be an issue now.

During 3e they had the d20 or the OGL to connect them with D&D. They do not know (assuming a situation with no license). That might make a difference...

Either way. It was in responce to dmc make it sound (to me at least) as if a few 3PP producing some unlicensed adventures would spell doom and gloom for WoTC.

Admittedly, I do not know US law, and what I know of it makes absolutely no sense in my country, so that's why I am asking some questions.

 

[Orcus]

They could lose control completely. IIRC, Kobolds are not in the SRD. Well Kobolds are a german myth. Guess what, Goodman and AE can have Kobolds in their adventures. Mind Flayers are just a Cthulhu knock-off. Cthulhu is now public domain. Guess what. AE and Goodman can have their own Cthulhu knock off in their adventures. How about adventures "in the Realms Forgotten by time"? Publishers played nice in 3E because they had a favorable, safe harbor environment to publish in. Now, publishers are making a business decision because Wizards took away the safe harbor.

Unless Wizards does something soon (like change the GSL, bigtime and quickly), companies could pretty much pick apart WotC's IP. This could extend beyond RPGs too. Imagine a Mind Flayer-esque creature in WoW? (Mind you, I'm not a WoW player so I don't know if there isn't one or not.)

I wonder if this is really happening. I'd like a couple more days to see the dust settle. I'd like to hear from the guys involved.

But I sent an email to Wizards some months ago reminding them that as they were doing the GSL to remember the benefits of the safe harbor and that if too restrictive people could just use copyright law. That was seen as a threat and wasnt well recieved.

I want to know what is really going on here. If GG and AE are "going copyright" so to speak, good for them. But that certainly has its risks. It also has an impact on the community. It creates and "us vs. them" mentality that I really felt the OGL was able to get us all past. Everyone was all friendly and generally working together with Wizards to everyone's benefit. It would be a shame to lose that.

In fact, I have long thought that one of the reasons for the OGL was to prevent this exact thing--"going copyright." Because then Wizards loses control and then they have to use the expensive option of lawsuits to stop things. And while that might not be easy on the small publisher, lets not pretend that that is a route Wizards is really excited about either. Nobody likes lawsuits. The OGL was brilliant--"come here and play in our pond and we will give you a few things that is better than just going copyright and no one has to worry about us suing you, etc." That is the reason the "safe harbor" was such a strong issue for the OGL. Because the people involved with the OGL knew that there was another place for us to sail our boats and that it was smart for everyone to make sure we sailed in their pond.

If 4E becomes supported by "going copyright" I will be sad.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Either way, without the D&D name on it, I am not sure things will sell so well. Don't get me wrong, I do (at least for now) plan to buy plenty of 3PP products. But I am not like the average gamer, and neither are you. I doubt AE and GG are known by 5% of D&D gamers, and that is being generous.

I don't know how valid your assumptions are. It seems like plenty of 3E products sold without the D&D name, perhaps simply because of where they were stocked in RPG stores, and I think "the average D&D gamer" is rather better informed, in 2008, than you give him credit for. This is not 1988, after all.

I know that with the d20 STL, I intentionally avoided d20 STL products, because I viewed them as inferior to OGL ones. Given how ludicrously restrictive the GSL is, I don't see any reason I wouldn't do the same thing again. Given that none of the publishers I respect, or more importantly, from whom I've bought much before, are doing anything significant under the GSL as yet, I don't see any reason to see it as a positive mark on a product.

Someone has said "Oh but new publishers will fill the gap!". I'm sure they will. With crap. Just like the d20 STL caused floods of total junk to appear, because serious designers and publishers were less than keen on messing with that, in many cases.