Adamantine Arrows?

[hong]

1) Arrows do not deal 1d8 or 1d6 damage. The chart on pg. 99 of the PHB shows arrows as doing no damage. Therefore, adamantine arrows do not gain an enhancement bonus from adamantine when projected from a bow.

By this logic, since a _bow_ is listed as doing 1d6/1d8 damage, I could make an adamantine bow and it would get a natural enhancement bonus.

4) Since the entire weapon has to be made out of adamantine,

Chapter and verse, please.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Chapter and verse, please.

Here a few verses for you to sing.

Darkwood: This rare magic wood is as hard as normal wood but very light. Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow, an arrow, or a spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type. Items not normally made of wood or only partially of wood (such as a battleaxe or a mace) either cannot be made from darkwood or do not gain any special benefit from being made of darkwood.

Mithral: ... Note that items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected. (A longsword is affected, while a spear is not.)

I know these quotes don't mention adamantine specifically but I think it is save to assume it goes for them as well.

 

[hong]

I know these quotes don't mention adamantine specifically but I think it is save to assume it goes for them as well.

Note that darkwood and mithril have a benefit that's very different to that granted by adamantine. Darkwood and mithril items weigh less and are less encumbering, while adamantine grants an enhancement bonus. Hence the different requirements: an item that isn't primarily made of darkwood/mithril won't weigh significantly less, but only the cutting edge or impact surface of a weapon would need to be made of adamantine. Otherwise you couldn't have an adamantine battleaxe, for instance.

 

[AGGEMAM]

I disagree, but I guess you knew that

Does the rules, as they are, support either view in full? I don't think so! So here one of the cases where we can say: 'whatever' without harming too many people.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

By this logic, since a _bow_ is listed as doing 1d6/1d8 damage, I could make an adamantine bow and it would get a natural enhancement bonus.

Yes, if your DM is a dolt (or into really high powered magic) and allows adamantine to replace wood components. That is the same DM that allows greatswords to be made out of water or sand.
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Chapter and verse, please.

So you are arguing what? That an adamantine battleaxe is not made entirely of adamantine?

"This non-magical axe is made out of adamantine..." pg. 188 DMG

"This non-magical breastplate is made out of adamantine..." pg. 182

"This large non-magical shield is made from adamantine..." pg. 183

"Weapons fashioned from adamantine..." pg. 242

Notice how it does not say that the battleaxe, breastplate or shield are made out of hog's droppings, steel, wood, leather, and adamantine.

By your rationale, one could make an adamantine battleaxe by just lining the blade with adamantine, since all that matters is cutting area. However, notice that the book does not support your view. It does not say, "only the cutting edge or impact surface of a weapon need to be made of adamantine."

It does say, however, "...this ultrahard metal adds to the quality of the weapon or suit of armor based on how much of the material is used." pg. 242

And...

"Adamantine has a hardness of 20 and 40 hit points per inch of thickness."

Ruling that adamantine works the way you say it does opens a whole new can of worms:

Do composite adamantine/wood weapons such as a battleaxe gain the hardness and hit points of adamantine or wood? If you say both, which part do I sunder? Can I make a battleaxe completely out of adamantine? If so, how much would it cost? Why is it that an arrowhead gains more of a bonus from adamantine than a dagger, even though a dagger uses more adamantine?
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And if all of the above doesn't sway you, I guess it might be necessary to whip out Rule -1.

 

[The_lone_gunman]

Okay I'll whip out my rules lawyer to counter the above argument:

1) Arrows do not deal 1d8 or 1d6 damage. The chart on pg. 99 of the PHB shows arrows as doing no damage. Therefore, adamantine arrows do not gain an enhancement bonus from adamantine when projected from a bow.

2) In the DMG, pg. 183, arrows are treated as ammunition for purposes of ranged combat, not as ranged weapons, and therefore would not gain a benefit from adamantine, as it only affects weapons and armor.

3) If used as a melee weapon (pg. 97 PHB), arrows are tiny weapons and deal 1d4 damage, which would give them a +1 enhancement bonus only if the whole arrow was made out of adamantine. The descriptions of both the adamantine dagger and battleaxe say that the weapons are made out of adamantine, not adamantine and another material (such as wood or steel).

4) Since the entire weapon has to be made out of adamantine, (which has the same weight as steel) if your DM allows steel arrows to fly, then your DM is a dolt. That is the same DM that will allow adamantine clubs and whips.

Just got one question for you, if arrows do not deal damage, then how do you have +1-5 arrows? Not to mention arrows with other effects on them? (although you could argue that the "effect" is simply being carried by the arrow, the +1-5 that you can have on an arrow would definately infer that it does indeed do damage, especially since it stacks with the bow's bonus.....)

TLG

 

[hong]

Yes, if your DM is a dolt (or into really high powered magic) and allows adamantine to replace wood components. That is the same DM that allows greatswords to be made out of water or sand.

Please. I do the "harsh and condescending" thing MUCH better than you. Would you like me to start?

Also, point 1: ConcreteBuddha argues that adamantine cannot be used to replace wood components. This will become significant further on, as we shall see.

So you are arguing what? That an adamantine battleaxe is not made entirely of adamantine?

Well, yes. It has a wooden haft, doesn't it?

"This non-magical axe is made out of adamantine..." pg. 188 DMG

All that means is that the important part of the axe -- the head, in other words -- is constructed out of adamantine. I fail to see how making the handle out of adamantine has anything to do with how much damage it does or how hard it hits.

Notice how it does not say that the battleaxe, breastplate or shield are made out of hog's droppings, steel, wood, leather, and adamantine.

Point 2: ConcreteBuddha is now arguing that adamantine _can_ be used to replace wood components. Needless to say, this contradicts point 1 rather nicely.

Please to make up your mind.

It does say, however, "...this ultrahard metal adds to the quality of the weapon or suit of armor based on how much of the material is used." pg. 242

And...

"Adamantine has a hardness of 20 and 40 hit points per inch of thickness."

Your point being...?

Ruling that adamantine works the way you say it does opens a whole new can of worms:

Do composite adamantine/wood weapons such as a battleaxe gain the hardness and hit points of adamantine or wood? If you say both, which part do I sunder?

Facile. The exact same point would apply to a normal battleaxe, unless you're suggesting that those are made completely out of metal as well.

Can I make a battleaxe completely out of adamantine?

If you wanted to, sure.

If so, how much would it cost?

Anything you want it to, if you want to make life complicated for yourself. As you appear to be doing quite handily.

Why is it that an arrowhead gains more of a bonus from adamantine than a dagger, even though a dagger uses more adamantine?

Facile. You might as well ask the question, why does an arrow fired from a longbow gain more of a bonus from adamantine than a shortsword or halfspear, even though these use more adamantine? Answer: it's magic. Please to remember Hong's Third Law.

And if all of the above doesn't sway you, I guess it might be necessary to whip out Rule -1.

Is that the one where you run around in circles arguing with yourself?

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Hmmm...

..before this thread drowns in bickering, I´d like to add my 2 cents...

First off, I´d actually allow the arrows to carry the enhancement bonus the adamantine heads would give them, but...related to the bow they´re fired from. Why? Because the force that causes the damage comes from the bow the arrow is shot from, not the arrow itself. But essentially, the tool that causes the force to damage someone is the arrowhead, so if it´s enhanced, it gets the enhancement bonus.

Second, I wouldn´t taking the words in the DMG too literally. "Weapons fashioned from adamantine..." doesn´t necessarily mean the whole weapon is fashioned from adamantine...it sounds rather that the steel parts are replaced with adamantine, nothing else.

Third...hong...even on the risk of incurring your acidic tongue and draw it´s attention on me...your nitpicking skills are undoubtedly maxed out, but...you and I know ConcreteBuddha was talking about the wooden parts in ranged weapons that are strung by hand, like longbows or shortbows, no other wooden parts. And you have to admit that, if one were to replace the wood in a bow with adamantine...it´d be a bit useless for the "normal" character, huh? Tried to string up a bow that was mainly made of high-quality steel? I haven´t..but I can´t imagine I could either.

 

[FANGO]

Interestingly enough, there are bows made these days that are made out of metals....

and a "composite" bow may be wooden/adamantine or something...you never know what kind of mischief those dwarves can cook up when they're at their forge....

 

[hong]

After reading the thread on adamantine on here I got to thinking. Consider arrowheads made of adamatine but not bearing any enchantments. They would be +2 arrows. However, these arrowheads would be hard enough that it would be very unlikely they would be damaged by being fired. The arrow might very well be unusable but normally you would recover the head which could be fitted to a new arrow.

Can't believe I missed this up to now! Whether or not the arrow would shatter isn't a function of its _hardness_, but its _toughness_. These are distinct physical properties; for example, obsidian is hard, but also brittle. In fact, IIRC hardness and toughness are inversely related in general; ie, the harder an alloy or metal is, the more brittle and liable to crack it becomes. Not that I'm a materials scientist by any means.

So it's quite plausible that adamantine arrows would gain a bonus but also shatter on impact. (Why don't melee weapons made of the same material shatter? Because the forging and tempering processes that are applied to such weapons don't work on items as small as arrowheads. IOW, because it's magic....)