Adamantine weapons

Dannyalcatraz said:
And what is the tube's diameter going to be?

A breastplate, bracer or greave is going to have a circumference 2"+ greater than a quarterstaff (I can wrap my hands around my quarterstaff, but not around my wrist). If you make a tube the same curvature of a bracer or greave, it will be quite difficult to grip.

THEN you'll have to rivet it to the wooden staff inside.

I'm not saying its impossible...but I'm having difficulty imagining the smith who'd agree to taking the job.

Let me back up and say that I'm an amateur jeweler, so I get to deal with all kinds of metals. There are people out there who are now making jewelry out of titanium, tungsten, rhodium, purple gold (yes, purple) and all kinds of unusual metals. However, to do so requires special equipment, high temperature forges and torches and so forth. Additionally, some jobs simply can't be done with certain metals...they're too brittle. They require too much heat. They fracture. They unbend.

I say get the smith who makes adamantine gauntlets to take on the job.

Cabral said:
Assuming adamantine is nonmagic, why not use Fabricate to make adamantium into whatever shape you need? Certainly be a lot faster than making all those little rings for chainmail... eesh.


Now you're cheating. Next thing you know you'll be suggesting that you use the spell to make masterwork full plate and ruin the economy... wait... that's already been suggested.


ANYhow. It's pretty clear to me that a technology (magicology?) that can make any other thing out of adamantine can also make adamantine quarterstaffs...

The next question is: Is that overpowered?
And if so: How?

It doesn't seem overpowered to me at all. I'd let it work. I prefer to say yes to new ideas unless I can see them not fitting into the proper power-level of the world. So another question I'd personally ask is: "What justification do I have for saying "no"?"

If the only justification I can think of is "Because it's new" or "Because I haven't thought of it", then I let it on in. If it turns out I missed the "Because it makes an otherwise mundane skill/ability into something highly powerful that can't be replicated at anywhere near the price", well, I'll do something to make the problem go away.
 
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Dannyalcatraz said:
The problem still exists...is the world's techology up to the task of rolling out a tube of this superhard metal of sufficient thickness to make a hollow quarterstaff out of it?

Adamantium can be worked into greaves & bracers because its thin sheets of metal, which, as I pointed out, don't require great mass to be effective.

You're talking about either:

1) A single sheet of adamantium rolled into a tube of the same dimensions as a quarterstaff. That will be a thick sheet of metal. It will require great force to work into a tube- likely more than a simple blacksmith could muster by force of human arms alone.

2) Multiple thin layers of adamantium in a laminate construction rolled into a tube of the same dimensions as a quarterstaff. Laminates are difficult to do properly. You can have layer seperation.

It appears that you are fixated on problems that aren't actually there.

You presume that the sheet of adamantium that makes up the surface of the quarterstaff has to be thick in order to be useful.

This is a useful argument if you are arguing against the feasability of such a construction, and a false premise if you are only concerned with the effectiveness of a weapon.

All that is required for a quarterstaff to be effective is a hard striking surface, a consistent density throughout its length and an acceptable degree of rigidity. (the exact amount of flexibility desired/required is dependent on who is using the weapon - shao lin monks seem to prefer more flexibility than sherwood forest bandits)

That being said, a thin surface of adamantium with internal bracing for strength is all that is required. This exactly parallels the construction of bracers and greaves which you have conceded is not problematic.

This does not confer a great deal of strength for something so long as a quarterstaff, so it is now required to add internal stiffening and lateral bracing. This is not rocket science.

Your argument also betrays a lack of imagination. At no point is it ever required that the construction is limited to a sheet rolled into a tube. There are fighting staff weapons with cross sections that are not circular. An octagonal cross section allows for segmented construction which should be more than doable for a technology base that can manage articulated adamantium armor for sizes ranging from cloud giant to pixie.
 

After a little reflection, I believe the optimal construction pattern for an adamantium quarterstaff is as follows.

Construct a number of strips of adamantium the length of the quarterstaff and the width of half the desired diameter. You'll need 18. Make triangular tubes by welding them together at the edges, collect them and construct a hexagonal pile. Weld these together and add some bulk to the surface to round it out for ease of handling.

The thickness of the original strips is to be determined by the ratio of the density of adamantium to the density of wood. The result is a tubular construction that distributes lateral shock throughout the framework for good impact resistance. I've seen aluminum baseball bats built this way.
 


Dannyalcatraz said:
The problem still exists...is the world's techology up to the task of rolling out a tube of this superhard metal of sufficient thickness to make a hollow quarterstaff out of it?

Fabricate.

Oops. Looks like someone beat me to it.

Anyhow, balance-wise it doesn't seem game-breaking to me to allow primarily wooden weapons to be crafted from adamantine.
 
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It appears that you are fixated on problems that aren't actually there.

No. I'm fixated on problems derived from working with metals in the real world, and limiting myself to discussion of methods that a RW blacksmith of an analagous tech level would have at his disposal. I'm ignoring the use of magic because then you're not just talking about a masterwork weapon, but a construction process dependent on magic, and if you're doing THAT, it is functionally no different than constructing any other magic item- you handwave the difficulties away.

You presume that the sheet of adamantium that makes up the surface of the quarterstaff has to be thick in order to be useful.

No. I'm assuming that you (as you stated) want a staff of adamantium that has the same dimensions and mass as a wooden quarterstaff, which would, perforce, be hollow.

All that is required for a quarterstaff to be effective is a hard striking surface, a consistent density throughout its length and an acceptable degree of rigidity.

Having been struck by hard, light staves, I can assure you that all they do is hurt (sometimes a lot) unless they hit a spot that is inherently fragile- a larynx, an eye, the groin, etc. In game terms, they are subdual weapons at best.

If you want a staff to be a weapon, something that could break bone or dent armor, you need MASS.

That being said, a thin surface of adamantium with internal bracing for strength is all that is required. This exactly parallels the construction of bracers and greaves which you have conceded is not problematic.

This does not confer a great deal of strength for something so long as a quarterstaff, so it is now required to add internal stiffening and lateral bracing. This is not rocket science.

I beg to differ.

You're talking about internally bracing a 6'-9' long staff of a metal harder than most alloys out there- roughly equivalent to the nickel-iron you'd find at the Gibeon Meteor strike.

Adamantine: Found only in meteorites and the rarest veins in magical areas, this ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. (PHB p283)

I have some of this stuff- I broke 3 diamond-tipped drills engraving one piece with the Zodiacal symbol for Libra. Its heat resistant, with a crystalline structure- listed as a "high-temperature" alloy. This stuff is tough!

While lateral bracing is indeed a possibility, internally braced metal tubes require special tools that aren't in a blacksmith's toolbox, like acetyline blowtorches.

In fact, doing much more than cutting it, rolling it and riveting it would require things a medieval blacksmith wouldn't have, like a high-temperature forge.

A typical medieval forge was capable of temperatures of 1650-2500 degF.

Working Nickel-Iron requries a minimum temp of 2600 degF. I don't see how I could let adamantium be forged at a lower temp in my campaign.

100 deg F doesn't sound like much, but it means everything.

Your argument also betrays a lack of imagination.

No, it betrays an understanding of the physics involved in working metals like this.

At no point is it ever required that the construction is limited to a sheet rolled into a tube. There are fighting staff weapons with cross sections that are not circular. An octagonal cross section allows for segmented construction which should be more than doable for a technology base that can manage articulated adamantium armor for sizes ranging from cloud giant to pixie.

While you're correct that you could weld flat sheets, or bundled tubes or rods into a single rod the approximate diameter of a quarterstaff, you still run into the problem of how to weld the stuff.

As pointed out above, you'd have to heat the adamantium to 2600 deg or hotter to do a single metal (adamantium to adamantium) weld.

If you can't do that, you'd have to use welds or bands and caps of lesser metals to bind your rods together...and then you'd lose the effects of having a staff of pure adamantium.

And riveting, as a technology, works better for things like armor than things like tubes of metal.
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
No. I'm fixated on problems derived from working with metals in the real world, and limiting myself to discussion of methods that a RW blacksmith of an analagous tech level would have at his disposal. I'm ignoring the use of magic because then you're not just talking about a masterwork weapon, but a construction process dependent on magic, and if you're doing THAT, it is functionally no different than constructing any other magic item- you handwave the difficulties away.

A typical medieval forge was capable of temperatures of 1650-2500 degF.

Working Nickel-Iron requries a minimum temp of 2600 degF. I don't see how I could let adamantium be forged at a lower temp in my campaign.

just a few points here. your fixating on the fact that IRL you could not physicaly forge adamantine in the era's forges. i agree. but this is not IRL, and most likely the forges have some magical enhancments on them if they are not just magical themselfs.

think about it this way, when you find the adamantine, its in a rough, raw form right? so how do you get the impurities out? how about making a large size greatsword or a large size set of full plate? you would physicaly have to be able to melt the metal down. or find a friggin huge chunk of ore that is perfictly pure when mined. IRL at the time it would be near imposible to make anything out of this metal. once you add some magic in though, it becomes much easyer, as there are many spells that can mimic our high-tech tools.

just my 2 cents.
 

just a few points here. your fixating on the fact that IRL you could not physicaly forge adamantine in the era's forges. i agree. but this is not IRL, and most likely the forges have some magical enhancments on them if they are not just magical themselfs.

Like I said- I'm ignoring anything that REQUIRES magic. Having a magically hot forge sufficient to melt adamantine would 1) cost a weaponsmith a great deal and 2) would likely only be available to the greatest and richest weaponsmiths & armorers around, so we would be discussing a process functionally the same as making a magical weapon. If we're talking about that, it doesn't matter.

think about it this way, when you find the adamantine, its in a rough, raw form right? so how do you get the impurities out? how about making a large size greatsword or a large size set of full plate? you would physicaly have to be able to melt the metal down. or find a friggin huge chunk of ore that is perfictly pure when mined.

The nickel-iron I've worked with was found in a huge slab or chunks (I've seen chunks the size of baby carriages), and cut into sheets, cubes, orbs, etc. by using diamond saws and so forth. Some was subsequently pressed by high-pressure metal presses. It is naturally fairly pure.

Some of this WOULD be available to the weaponsmiths of old.

However, anything requiring actual welding and bending would be a 1.5*(bitch).
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
Like I said- I'm ignoring anything that REQUIRES magic. Having a magically hot forge sufficient to melt adamantine would 1) cost a weaponsmith a great deal and 2) would likely only be available to the greatest and richest weaponsmiths & armorers around, so we would be discussing a process functionally the same as making a magical weapon. If we're talking about that, it doesn't matter.

Given though that all Adamantine items are masterwork quality (and therefore requiring at least DC20 Craft checks to make) it stands to reason that the smiths who are skilled enough to work adamantine & can afford to do so are the greatest and richest smiths around and would therefore have access to the appropriate magical resources.
 

Given though that all Adamantine items are masterwork quality (and therefore requiring at least DC20 Craft checks to make) it stands to reason that the smiths who are skilled enough to work adamantine & can afford to do so are the greatest and richest smiths around and would therefore have access to the appropriate magical resources.

True...but the fact is a magically enhanced forge is still going to be pretty damn rare. For most smiths, a cost/benefit analysis would reveal them not to be worth the trouble.

A smith doesn't need a magical forge to create masterwork goods. Instead of investing in buying a magically enhanced forge, he can use a normal forge and pump out masterwork goods as much as he wants, according to his abilities, of course.

Consider this example from real life: I know lots of people who have worked with metals like titanium, tungsten, platinum and so forth, but they require special tools and chemicals to work, like laser torches. While they have the knowedge of the techniques and tools required to work with those metals, they choose not to because of the additional costs and hazards.

So a weaponsmith is going to have to weigh the cost of obtaining a magical forge versus the possibility of needing a magical forge, just like any other tool in his shop. Most weaponsmiths, regardless of their skills, will not need such a forge. Most spellcasters aren't going to want to create one, either, so they're likely to be ex-pen-sive. (Do you want to be the guy blowing a Permanency spell on this?)

That, along with all the other attendant problems I've mentioned above, is why there's that +3000gp surcharge on adamantine weapons and +5000 on adamantine armor. (DMG p283)

(Which, IMHO, is low.)
 

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