Adding class levels to a Racial HD 21+ creature

[Shin Okada]

FAQ says epic rules are applied to creatures with 21+ HDs. But creatures with 21+ racial HDs calculate their BAB and Base Save Bonuses according to their total HDs. For example, a Colossal Monstrous Scorpion with Racial HD 40 has BAB of 30, Base Save Bonuses of +22/+13/+13. Not BAB 15 + Epic Level Attack bonus of +10 nor Base Save Bonuses of +12/+7/+7 + Epic Level Save Bonus of +10.

Now If I add a fighter level to an advanced Titan with Racial HDs of 22?

Racial HD 22 gives him BAB +22 and Base Saves of +13/+13/+13. And he is a 23rd level character because of additional fighter level.

How much are his final Attack Bonuses and save bonuses (before adding ability mods, feats, item bonuses, etc.)?

 

[Runestar]

There appear to be 2 conflicting stances on this issue.

Just about every epic npc I see (with the exception of Gerti from the ELH) has the bab of the classes simply added onto the existing bab from its monster HD (eg: frost giant blackguard from MM, eldritch giant confessor from MM3, various dragon npcs from dragons of faerun etc). However, I am unsure as to whether this is indeed how the epic progression rules are supposed to work, or if the designers simply did it to expedite the monster statting process.

The FAQ does state that the dragon prcs from draconomicon are meant to be an exception to the norm (their requirements mean that the dragons pretty much must have at least 21+ HD to qualify, yet they possess bab/save progressions), which suggests that epic bab/saves trigger the moment character lv (ie: racial HD + class lvs) exceeds 20. So yeah, a 20HD undead/fighter1 never gets that 3rd attack...

Also, the various epic prcs in the ELH do not have bab/save progressions, so you do get an interesting conundrum if a powerful monster could somehow qualify for them without any class lvs without triggering epic bab/saves (for example, any dragon, outsider or monstrous humanoid with 23 HD could technically take lvs in legendary dreadnought...)

You may also need to evaluate the cr increase from class lvs independently, since monster HD never trigger epic bab rules, and you typically can get 2-3 of them at the price of 1 class lv.

Hmm...that wasn't very conclusive, was it...

 

[FEADIN]

Once you're in the Epic range you use the Epic BAB and Save progression even for this 1st fighter level, it seems strange but IMHO you can use the 21st line in the ELH as if your 22hd were like 20 levels.

 

[Alzrius]

As Runestar said, there's no clear answer on this issue. While the epic BAB/save progressions are pretty clearly only applied to class levels and not racial Hit Dice, it remains uncertain what to do if you have a combination of racial Hit Dice and class levels that together exceeds 20.

Personally, I make all classes use the epic BAB/save progression once the total Hit Dice reaches 21+, rather than having that only apply once they gain 20 class levels. After all, racial Hit Die always uses its own BAB/save adjustment, so they don't need to keep the better attack and save progressions from classes too, since that'd make them a bit too powerful, I think.

 

[Shin Okada]

Thank you all. Maybe I have been paying too much attention on the epic progression table which is using total character level.

If I just apply "+1 epic bonus on all saving throws at every even-numbered level" and "+1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level" to non-racial class level total, it may work.

I don't know if that is RAW or not. But Epic rules are more or less DIY thingy anyway.

 

[Runestar]

My only reservation is that this may make them too weak, meaning you need to ignore the cr guidelines and evaluate them independently. Consider a creature with full bab, such as a titan or dragon. Using normal advancement guidelines, they get +2 bab and +1 to all saves for every cr increase (~2 racial HD). Conversely, class lvs grant only +1 to bab and saves for each 2 lvs (or +2cr), not to mention fewer hp and skill points. Those had better be one heck of a class feature they are getting, to make up for the dramatic loss.

The fighter lv doesn't even appear to add anything which a titan does not already have (it is proficient with martial weapons and heavy armour to begin with).

I think you are better off simply advancing the titan all the way to 30HD if need be to get whatever result you desire.