Level Up (A5E) Adding narrative satisfaction to armor

[Steampunkette]

What was that method, @dave2008?

 

[tetrasodium]

I have explained it, you just don't except the explanation. What a stated was a fact: adding a subtraction process takes more time. The only real question is how much time. You also need to realize the time it takes to do the subtraction is only part of the issue, you also have the issue of remembering to do the subtraction. That part should get better over time of course, but it can also persist for some. I mean the math is not difficult, but it is another process to not only remember, but to do.

Now in 4e, because we were looking for ways to reduce our combat time we did lengthy timed studies. We actually end up using a timer (each person had 30 sec. to resolve their actions from start to finish). In our experiments to get to the time limit we found we had to change DR because it was taking up to much time. We found a way to incorporate it that works for us, I personally think is narratively superior too, and didn't take as much time. So I don't know if you have done timed studies of multiple aspects of a players turn, but we did and DR absolutely had a time cost.

Personally I believe you to are experience a time loss because of, but it so small that you don't really notice it. However, we you restrict your turn to 30 sec or less, you might.

What game are you talking about where players are regularly taking damage from enemy attacks on their own turn leaving players to calculate the impact of the DR on their own armor while doing player things like making attacks casting spells etc?. I do enforce times on player turns but those turns are rarely going to involve players getting attacked by monsters

 

[dave2008]

What game are you talking about where players are regularly taking damage from enemy attacks on their own turn leaving players to calculate the impact of the DR on their own armor while doing player things like making attacks casting spells etc?. I do enforce times on player turns but those turns are rarely going to involve players getting attacked by monsters

You are correct, I completely misremembered that. Some of that example was BS, I just didn't realize it. I will have to ask one of my players. It must have had to do with my turn (the DM) and not the players turns, but I clearly don't remember it well enough. We did do a deep study of combat time, but you are correct the DR calculation would not impact the player's 30 seconds. I can only guess the issue was me and I didn't like subtracting DR from every hit before I gave the damage to the PCs. But honestly I don't remember now. My apologies for misrepresenting what happened.

EDIT: Upon some reflection it may come down to how we calculated DR too. It was not a simple 1-2, which I agree has less of an impact than the 8 we have for plate armor. But like I said, I don't remember it well enough to comment about this intelligently any further until I at least talk to my players. It is harder to remember 13+ years ago than I thought!

 

[dave2008]

What was that method, @dave2008?

I think I mentioned it further up thread, but maybe not. Regardless I will give a bit more detailed explanation:

• Armor has DR which = AC-10 (in addition to its armor class). So plate has 8 DR.
• An armor's DR only comes into effect on a "true" hit.
• A "true" hit is a critical hit, or a hit after your HP = 0.

So, narratively speaking, all standard "hits" and hit point loss are glancing blows, armor deflection, near misses, minor scratches, fatigue, etc. For this example I will call this combat karma. When your combat karma fails you, either you have run out (0 HP) or the attack too brilliant (critical hit), the attack truly hits you. This is when an Armor's DR comes into play. The AC of armor is part of the narration of near misses and glancing blows, but on a "true hit," the only thing protecting you is your armor's DR. So on a crit or after your at 0 HP, any damage you take is reduced by your armors DR.

In this way DR goes from an every hit calculation (which is not really consistent with how we think abstract nature of HP and AC should be narrated) to the rare occasion of a critical or the target is at 0 HP, where it has more narrative impact.

I also want to clarify a few other house rules we have that come into play.

• We have two pools of hit points. Traditional hit points and bloodied hit points. Like DR, bloodied hit points only come into effect on a true hit. Your pool of bloodied hit points is very small (6-8 for Medium creatures). So, if you don't have an armor's DR to protect you, you are in dire straits on a "true" hit.
• You die when your bloodied hit points = 0. No death saves.
• We allow a player with multiple attacks to combine their attacks into a single power attack. This is important for finishing off creatures with a high DR. It is also more fun to narrate sometime then multiple strikes.
• You can spend HD to increase the damage of an attack.
• Bloodied hit points recovery very slowly (or with magic).

 

[bassplayer]

Maybe I'm late in discussuon, but I used a homebrew in my games to increase the gold value and also benefit melee heavy armor users. I just gave DR 1 to medium armor and DR 2 to heavy armor.

If the players found a expert smith they could add +1 at the DR with a "masterpiece" armor.

It was simple, not very complicated and reduced the Power of the dex based characters. Be Str based was almost good as be Dex based. And It never slowed down our games. The player will always remember to reduce it's own damage.

And I never used this features on Monsters at all. Even NPCs.

 

[tetrasodium]

Maybe I'm late in discussuon, but I used a homebrew in my games to increase the gold value and also benefit melee heavy armor users. I just gave DR 1 to medium armor and DR 2 to heavy armor.

If the players found a expert smith they could add +1 at the DR with a "masterpiece" armor.

It was simple, not very complicated and reduced the Power of the dex based characters. Be Str based was almost good as be Dex based. And It never slowed down our games. The player will always remember to reduce it's own damage.

And I never used this features on Monsters at all. Even NPCs.

I just had the same 1&2 on the base armor but like the idea of linking it to masterwork or similar better. my experiences with it were the same as the bit of your post that I bolded. What gold value increase did you use & was it a flat thing, more of a percentage armor to armor cost modifier, or something in-between?

 

[Faolyn]

Since the "Post Without Comment or Context" has been revivified, I would have to say that if you give armor DR, you should also give some nonmagical weapons the ability to pierce that DR. Firearms for one.

 

[bassplayer]

I just had the same 1&2 on the base armor but like the idea of linking it to masterwork or similar better. my experiences with it were the same as the bit of your post that I bolded. What gold value increase did you use & was it a flat thing, more of a percentage armor to armor cost modifier, or something in-between?

I'm not sure it was balanced at all, but it was a flat 200 gp to medium armor and 500 gp to heavy armor, plus the base price.

Since the "Post Without Comment or Context" has been revivified, I would have to say that if you give armor DR, you should also give some nonmagical weapons the ability to pierce that DR. Firearms for one.

I never used firearms, but it I used a lot of environmental damage (shove actions, extreme cold, etc) what made this advantage a little less overwhelming.

 

[Argyle King]

It is adding an operation to the resolution process.

No DR example:
DM: you take 5 fire damage.
Player: OK, I subtract 5 damage from my HP

DR example:
DM; you take 5 fire damage.
Player: OK, I substract 5 - 2, so 3 damage. I subtract 3 damage from my HP.

It is one more process. It takes more time. You can't add a step and it not take more time. How much more time is very dependent on the player. It can be an infinitesimally small amount of time or a significant one. Then that gets multiplied for every transaction on every attack. It is impossible for that not to add up.

Minor Nitpick:

Some people (like myself) don't subtract HP. Instead, I keep track of my total damage (adding it up).

Example:

DM says I take 5 fire damage. I write down 5.

DM says I take 5 fire damage. If I have 2DR... 5-2 = I write down 3.

Hypothetically, let's say I am hit with the same attack a second time. 3 + 3 = 6 damage total.

Does 6 exceed my HP? No... I'm alive. Yes... I'm dying.

It's the same number of steps (or arguably less) than the no DR example.

 

[dave2008]

Well it is a mute point now as I have already agreed with @tetrasodium that subtract 1 or 2 damage from a PCs damage is very minor operation and not affecting the time. I was not thinking about the issue properly. However,...

Minor Nitpick:

Some people (like myself) don't subtract HP. Instead, I keep track of my total damage (adding it up).

Interesting, I had never thought of doing it that way before. Have you thought about why you do it that way?

DM says I take 5 fire damage. I write down 5.

DM says I take 5 fire damage. If I have 2DR... 5-2 = I write down 3.

It's the same number of steps (or arguably less) than the no DR example.

That is an odd statement (bold red). You clearly added a step in the DR example (you subtracted 2 from 5 before writing down 3 damage). I agree the time it takes to do that is not relevant in the game, but it is clearly an additional step (a purely mental one, but still an additional step). Why do you think it is not an additional step?