Adding sorcerer levels to a Dragon

[Will]

All levels aren't created equal.

If I'm a 19th level cleric, gaining a level of wizard... um.

This is the most extreme case, but it outlines the principle.

Now whether in this case things seem fair, that comes down to judgement calls.

 

[Darklone]

All levels aren't created equal.

If I'm a 19th level cleric, gaining a level of wizard... um.

This is the most extreme case, but it outlines the principle.

Now whether in this case things seem fair, that comes down to judgement calls.

Actually, does he lose that much ?

 

[Scion]

In a word, yes.

I can play this game too. In a word, not on your life.

The wizard in this case is gaining almost nothing (few hit points and skill points) aside from those two spell slots. Given that he already has some for those already, it isn't that much of an increase in power that it alone deserves a CR increase...or is it?

The wizard is gaining the same amount of skill points he gained every other level. The dragon, however, gains many more from his hd. The amount of skill point difference here is extreme.

The wizard has, at level 18, 21*(2+int mod) in skill points
The dragon has, at mature adult, 25*(6+int mod) in skill points

Depending on the stats the wizard has the total skill points should lean heavily in the favor of the dragon. The wizard gains his same amount as always, but the sorc level barely changes his skill point total.

Definately not enough to change the CR. Not even close.


Let us take a look at those spell slots the sorc is gaining shall we?

9th level spell slot: This means that the wizard can Become a dragon a dragon for a good amount of time everyday. Or something else, or cast a spell that has a chance of killing the dragon dead with a single check.

The 7th level spell slot could also kill the dragon dead for that matter. Or do any number of other things. There are 'very' powerful spells you are talking about here. They are the things that legends are made of.

If you think that a 7th and 9th level spell slot dont up the casters power by a pretty good amount then we can just stop talking now, we arent even playing the same game anymore.

Incidentally, you mention that a CR 14 dragon would become a CR 15 creature for only gaining a "couple of third level spells". I decided to try and see where this would apply:

Yep, I just grabbed the first one. It should be a good enough example.

A mature adult black dragon is CR 14, and casts spells as a 5th level Sorcerer. Gaining a sorcerer level not only grants it an additional 3rd level spell, but also an additional 1st and 2nd level spell slot also (bonus spells due to high Charisma).

So it gets one third, one second, and one first? These are going to do what exactly against a party of 15th level adventurers? Not a whole lot of anything. If the spells dont help increase the creatures fighting capability by a sizeable amount then it isnt worth a change in CR. Those spells are mainly flavorful, they wont do much of anything vs the pc's.

Not to mention that this isnt true. He gains 3 3rd level spell slots and 1 second level slot to cast that day. He gains nothing extra from his charisma (it is only 14) and he gains 1 3rd level spell of his choice and 1 0th level spell.

So he gets to choose a single 3rd level spell to cast up to 3 times that day. And he gets to pick a 0th level spell. None of this is enough to up the CR of this already very formidable creature.

And of course, it'd gain three 4th level spell slots...quite a jump in spellcasting power, and more than worthy of a CR increase.

It is a 6th level sorcerer, they dont have 4th level spell slots. So no gain there.

Likewise, even if the instance were more generic than that, it'd still be worth the CR increase. A 3rd level spell slot can be used for a fireball, lightning bolt or what have you. It's the same as the superlatives you use for the 18th/19th level mage, just on a lower power-scale. Between that and the skill and hp increase (and depending on when it's taken, feat and/or ability increase), plus the save increase, altogether it does add up to being worth an CR +1.

Fireball? 6d6 save for half? At level 15?? Excuse me while I yawn His breath weapon does 14d4 (dc 26)!! vs 6d6 (dc 15). avg 35 vs avd 21. save dc 11 points lower. Which would you rather use as a dragon? your breath weapon or the spell? assuming you cant breathe this round, his natural attacks are far superior in most ways.

For this creature when he gets the next age category his CR goes from 14 to 16. A step up of 2. With this step up he gets 3 hd which are FAR superiour to the sorcerers/wizards hd (d12, all good saves, good BAB), he gets 2 points of str, his breath weapon increases by 2 dice and goes up by a point of dc, his firghtful presence goes up by one point, he gains 3 points of natural armor, he gains an extra spell-like ability, his SR increases and he is now a 7th level spellcaster[/I]

Can anyone here honestly say that the level of sorc to gain a single 3rd level spell, and pretty much nothing else, is worth HALF of that?????

Very, very doubtful. No matter how good that single 3rd level spell might be it certainly isnt worth anywhere near half of what he gets for just being a dragon. The extra power gained from that level of sorc isnt even a blip on its radar of abilities. All of its natural abilities far outstrip it in every way, it wont increase this mighty foes combat abilities anywhere near to the point of an extra point of CR.

 

[Silvanos]

Wow, what an interesting read...

Levels and CR's are not based on a linear scale. Gaining 19th level is not the same as gaining 2nd level. (Ok I'll get away from the obvious now! )

But every 19th level at some point went through 2nd level right? (Ok not quite done with the obvious...)

So why does a CR 14 Dragon get a boost for getting level 1 of sorc? Because so did every 19th, 20th, Epic + toon out there.

If you skip it... At what point do you START adding it? 2nd level of sorc? Well that is not THAT big a jump from 1st level... 3rd level sorc? Well that is not THAT big a jump compared to... Well you see where this goes.

So the answer to "Why would one little level of X class add to the CR of a Mighty Critter?" is... Because the system is based on a progression from low to high. You cannot add 5, 10, 15, 100000 levels without adding that 1st level. It is included in the calculation.

Other questions that could be related... How does adding 1 level of fighter to a Cloud Giant really make that much difference?

How does adding one level of Wizard to a Beholder make a difference?

Etc. It does because it adds that base of advancement... CR is a combination of HD, Skills, SA, EX Abilities, and yes... Levels.

But hey, that is just my way of thinking about it.

Drew

 

[Scion]

If you skip it... At what point do you START adding it?

A fair question.

Just like you said, CR is not on a linear scale.

The extra level of sorc definately adds something, but no where near enough to push the creature from CR 14 to CR 15.

If the dragon really is CR 14 and the next age category up is CR 16 (as in this case) then, as I showed above, adding one level of sorc is not going to change the creatures CR to 15. Not by a long shot.

This is a problem with the CR system, but not a really huge one. It is just that the sorc level is a fraction of a full point, how much of a fraction is hard to say. But it definately isnt worth a full one.

It isnt that, at some point in the past, some character got to level 3 and said, 'hey, I am better now!'. It is a dragon, who is already incredibly formidable, gaining a dab of power and him barely even noticing.

If the powers that are gained are not useful in combat then the CR of that creature should change either not at all, or only very slightly. The powers that this guy gets from that level are negligable compared to the Power that he already is.


While you ask, 'if you skip this one when do you start adding?' I'll respond with, 'if I add two levels to make this guy CR 16 is he anywhere near the power level he would be as one age category up at CR 16?'

They are both valid questions. Neither are easy to answer. But I think everyone can see that adding two levels of sorc and saying it is CR 16 is laughable compared to the real CR 16 that he will become. They arent even in the same category of power gained.

Levels for characters and levels for monsters work differently. For the pc it isnt just combat, it is everything. For the monsters the CR tends to depend more on combat. Hence the CR (challenge rating). If the extra level doesnt make him much more of a challenge (and this level of sorc doesnt change his challenge hardly at all) then how can it be justified to move the CR?

While I see the other side of the coin as well somwhere there has to be a tradeoff. You cannot just add a level to him and say he is much tougher, he isnt. If you add two levels then what do you do? do you not add a CR for the second? If you add two CR when adding those two levels then something is definately wrong, in a very obvious way.

So where do you draw the line? and why?

 

[Silvanos]

Well I draw the line at 1 level = 1 CR. For reasons I already stated.

Like with most things... It is up to the DM.

D

 

[Scion]

Well I draw the line at 1 level = 1 CR. For reasons I already stated.

Like with most things... It is up to the DM.

D

And for reasons I already stated that doesnt make any sense

 

[James McMurray]

So it gets one third, one second, and one first? These are going to do what exactly against a party of 15th level adventurers? Not a whole lot of anything. If the spells dont help increase the creatures fighting capability by a sizeable amount then it isnt worth a change in CR. Those spells are mainly flavorful, they wont do much of anything vs the pc's.

So he gets to choose a single 3rd level spell to cast up to 3 times that day. And he gets to pick a 0th level spell. None of this is enough to up the CR of this already very formidable creature.

Very, very doubtful. No matter how good that single 3rd level spell might be it certainly isnt worth anywhere near half of what he gets for just being a dragon. The extra power gained from that level of sorc isnt even a blip on its radar of abilities. All of its natural abilities far outstrip it in every way, it wont increase this mighty foes combat abilities anywhere near to the point of an extra point of CR.

Did you read my example spells? If you hamstring your dragon by choosing crap spells for him, of course it won't be worth a CR. But if you give him useful combat spells or spells that allow him to escape his foes, then his combat abilities are most definitely enhanced. Heck, just giving him Haste will make him faster than anything on the planet and give him an extra bite to snatch with.

Be sure to tell your players afterward that you upped the dragon's power but didn't up its CR, and therefore didn't up its treasure or XP value. I'm sure that they'll be happy about that... :\

 

[Silvanos]

Levels for characters and levels for monsters work differently. For the pc it isnt just combat, it is everything. For the monsters the CR tends to depend more on combat.

This is the part I disagree with. The CR of a critter is a combatation of everything as well. Just because you may not use it's diplomancy skill in a given encounter, does not mean it is not there. It is the same with the PC's in a given game. Monsters would be pretty boreing without all that extra stuff, at least in my game! Good PC's would rarely attack a Gold Dragon, does that mean a Gold Dragon is CR 0?

It seems that the trouble is that your are adding the Sorc level after the fact... And that seems weak. I'll buy that. What if you added it to a baby dragon, and then the dragon grew up with it? Surly those spells on a CR1 critter make it a CR2. Why would it suddenly drop off at CRX Y or Z?

I guess my thought is that the CR, as given is an inclusion of ALL powers, high and low. Wether that is a blue dragon's ability to creat/destroy water, or a blue dragons breath weapon. All together that adds up to CR Z. Adding the one sorc level... Adds up to CR +1.

Rules wise, this is the correct way. If it does not make sense... Well you have to Rule 0 it in the game you are DMing.

Peace!

 

[jessemock]

It seems that the trouble is that your are adding the Sorc level after the fact... And that seems weak. I'll buy that. What if you added it to a baby dragon, and then the dragon grew up with it? Surly those spells on a CR1 critter make it a CR2. Why would it suddenly drop off at CRX Y or Z?

Because the CR system isn't very accurate. Is a 27th level character really twice as powerful as a 25th level one?

Is a Cleric19/Sorceror1 really 20th level in the way that a Cleric20 is?

Etc?